Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks for clarifying, Todd -- that makes sense but wasn't the way I interpreted your post when I first read it. As stated, I don't get upset -- it is so easy for words to be misunderstood and I know that the vast majority of the folks on this forum are super nice individuals. It just seems to me that the conversations I've been apart of are much less constructive than I desire and require me to be a defensive when that shouldn't be the case.

Again, I hope the original post contains information that may be useful/interesting to some of you. If any of you run any experiments or arrive at any conclusions, please let me know as it is a topic I'm interested in.

I will have to say I agree with Simon here. I have yet to post any information or advice because I am just starting out but I have read hundreds of threads on this forum and do often find people dismissive and sometimes, at the very least, bordering on rude. I have no problem at all with disagreement because face it, if everyone agreed on everything this world would be boring! However, I try at all times to be respectful of others experiences and skills even if I disagree.
To Simon I would say, I hope you do not completely stop posting because I have always enjoyed your threads here and at the AGF and love watching your build threads! The work of you and several other luthiers is one of the things that has truly inspired me to pursue becoming a luthier myself. So thank you already for the inspiration and don't give up on us yet!

Well since it was me who sent the nastygram....

I didn't want to derail Simon's thread any further so I took it to PM. But since we're here already, I'm happy to reiterate in public.

Regardless of your explanation, starting a response with "Silly stuff" is not giving critical feedback. It's not constructive, it's destructive and dismissive. There's no other reasonable interpretation.

I've learned that one can't judge a person by their online persona. I think it's likely that I'd have a great time in person with most of the people that bug me here. But I'm tired of threads getting derailed because people can't take a breath and post in a more respectful way, exactly as Simon suggested. And it has had an obvious negative effect here with people intimidated to post or, like me, just finding it irritating.

And Todd, it's obvious that you're interested in making positive contributions here but you've also been in the middle of these derailments for years and you're clearly smart enough to know it and change it if you wanted. So I'm honestly curious why you keep using antagonizing language? What am I missing?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Well, since we're being honest here, I'll go now.

I build a lot of guitars and do a lot of repairs, but I don't really post them here for exactly the reasons mentioned by Simon.

I don't want to post a picture of my guitars in progress and have someone criticising my use of the workboard, or some other methodology as being "inferior" or "problematic" when it's not either, and having my prospective customers doing a Google search and then I have to defend my methods to them.

Or perhaps I've already taken their down payment and have started working on their guitar, and they call me up wondering why I'm not using a go-bar deck when that's the "better" method, that they've read about.

The fact of the matter is that I get what I consider to be superior results, that are the culmination of many years of trial and error, of trying many different build methods, and have settled on a method that I personally enjoy.

Why do I want to post them here when I'm just going to get criticised and derided by a small cabal of luthiers (NOT the majority of posters, BTW) who feel that their methods are THE methods to use and all others are inferior, whether or not that's true, just because they hang out together and prop each other up?

And then I have to explain to ill-informed customers that my methods are just as good and yield equal results, and that the guitar they played that they liked enough to order one from me was not an accident, and they don't have to worry that my method is inconsistent and problematic, their guitar will turn out exactly like I want it to, because I know my method inside and out and can build consistently with it, even if others have had problems with it.

I understand EXACTLY where Simon is coming from.

And I also understand my part in some of the more controversial threads, and I apologize for making the OLF unbearable at times, that's not my intention.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

It wasn't my intention to double post, either..

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Hi Todd,
Duly noted - I know this substitute fret might seem to introduce a lot of uncertainty but again, my impression was that the mechanical properties were being preserved. The "substitute" fret was extremely stable and well anchored beneath the string - furthermore, IMO any lack of stability or proper "seating" would seem to result in worse tone rather than better tone. And so, it seems to me that the test yields inconclusive but still useful results. For anyone thinking about this topic I at thought it might be an interesting starting point for them and something they could easily duplicate themselves with minimal effort. A few folks recommended some modifications that would make the test much more certain and reliable - in particular, I believe it was Jeff who recommended a really well thought out approach -- but definitely much more work than the method I employed.

Lastly, I am quite sure you are a really friendly, nice individual - but your first post did feel dismissive. Even the post directly above "I could care less..." will likely appear a bit rude to some individuals. Obviously, you wouldn't take issue with such rhetoric -- but please note, that some of us prefer a more respectful banter among our friends and peers and therefore choose to be less active on this forum because of it. I am not angry or storming away in a huff -- I am just choosing to be less involved because I don't find the experience all that fun anymore. I'll still be around but I will be more cautious about my postings.

Best Regards,
Simon

I'm thinking that Todd makes a good point here about the differences. I'm not sure that the trimmed fret tang has the same impact as a properly glued and seated fret.

After all, if a fret is loose, after gluing, there will be a noticeable improvement in tone. I have difficulty accepting that trimming the tang and holding the fret to the board is not more equivelant to the unseated fret issue. When you play an unseated fret, you are also holding the fret down into the slot with your finger and the string, and it still sounds bad until you glue it down. Why would a de=tanged fret held down against the fretboard then be expected to be able to be compared to a properly fretted/seated fret?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just believe that SS frets are worth installing in a top quality professional quality luthier-made instrument, and feel this subject deserves a thorough threshing out.

So maybe further tests are warranted before you abandon them completely?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I think a interesting thing would be to compare a unseated EVO fret to a seated stainless (as you did) and then compare a unseated stainless to a seated EVO.
L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

or cut the tang from a SS fret and see how that compares to the tangless evo.

More data..

A little C37 lacquer would have cleared this all up.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Just to clarify, the seated frets were stainless steel. They were glued in with Titebond and were very securely seated. The "substitute" fret was EVO and it sounded better to me and a non-musician friend. Most of us would associate improper seating with an adverse tonal change. My results were the opposite. I do not believe that filing off the tang and holding it against the fretboard could result in better mechanical interaction than seating; thus, I believe it is reasonable to conclude that the EVO tonal improvement I heard is due to the fret material. I think that logic is sound and sensible. Absolutely, I understand that it is a variable that some folks might want to eliminate but for me it was sufficient enough also given the experience of many other people reporting on the SS fret issue. Bear in mind, what I heard - a "ping" in the initial attack is the exact complaint others have levied against SS fretwire.

I am not going to devote any more time to testing -- but if that one variable bothers you, I hope that some of you would take the effort to see if it is corrupting the results. If so, please let us know since if the results are different, then I would definitely want to be more thorough with the experiment and see if I still hear the same thing.

By the way, the direction this thread has taken has been marvelous, IMO. No arguments or dismissive comments -- just positive, constructive postings. I do appreciate that greatly!!!

Hey Simon, Glad you've stayed engaged. Could you please take a stainless steel fret without a tang and substitute if for the evo one just to see if you hear the "ping" in the initial attack ? It would help clear things up for me.

If not, that's okay too.

cheers, Steve

One last thing, I got a really nice message from Filippo. I just want to say two things:

1) Threads on the OLF often feel like arguments rather than debates. The style of rhetoric and not the content is what distinguishes between those two scenarios. The main difference being a level of respect displayed in one's tone.

2) Lastly, I am not judging anyone. However, I just don't like to "argue". Not to be too personal here but I grew up in a house with a mother who was a victim of emotional abuse from her alcoholic father. My Mom was incredibly loving but volatile during our childhood. My brother and I get along fantastically with my Mom but growing up, there were a lot of arguments and volatility. Most of this was directed at her family members rather than us but I always hated how things got blown out of proportion. I love calm and peace and respect and humility -- and I seek those things in others. As I mentioned, this is a really nice community but I just don't find posting here much fun anymore due to the argumentative nature that often presents itself.

Hi Steve,
I don't have any SS fretwire. I might try and get some and see if that does make a difference. I will certainly add that information to this thread if I do.

Re your previous post,

I was also raised in a volatile household. I ended up pretty thin skinned...

Re SS wire,

Can I send you hunk?

I suspect that more than one or two of the Fight Threads have been more or less fueled by binge drinking...

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Hi Michael,
If you have some, drop some in an envelope (info@fayguitars.com for my address) and send it to me -- then I will run the test again. Or I can send some EVO to anyone who would like to try this experiment for themselves. Once again, I perceived the difference as being very slight but having a hollow/tinny quality in the initial attack. A good description would be a bit of a "ping" sound in the attack.

And regarding thinned skinned, I would actually consider myself as being very, very hard to offend. For me, I just prefer more peaceful and respectful banter. Also, there is the issue that if I state something on a public forum and I feel like I need to go on the defensive -- then I have to engage in discussion because this is my business and reputation involved. Bear in mind, I wouldn't feel the need to defend myself if this were just a hobby of mine!!!

--
Simon

I've got some EVO. I use it for my ukes. I'll give it a try.

I'll pop a chunk of ss in the mail.

Best,

M

Well, that's a new one! Unless you count going to the store when you run out as the period of "moderation."

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

For the sake of discussion, let's, as we used to say, go from the sublime to the ridiculous. For the next test, use a fret made from a common poplar wood dowel pin. Would it sound the same as the EVO? Likely not. Why? Different material.

So my next question is why the difference on the SS? What is it about that initial attack that causes what you hear? Does the string bounce? Translate side to side? Does the fret itself ring for a split second?

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Todd and Filippo are great. The idea of iron shaping iron comes to mind. These are two guys that contribute to the forum selflessly and advocate for others. They're also good at keeping life interesting.

But I hear where you're coming from as well, Simon. FWIW, I'm extremely glad that you're a member here and would actually love to see you post more, not less. From what I gather, I don't think debates like this can damage the reputation you've developed for top flight instruments. I'd love to know more about the way you work and some of the thought that's gone into your guitars.

Agree with James' affirming words to you Simon. You have a keen eye to creative and appealing design; stepping a little ways outside of convention but steering clear of corny. I'd love to learn more from you not only in terms of building methodology but of design criterion as well. Keep your tap open in our direction!

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Doug

Don't let fear or common sense stop you from trying to build something