Official Luthiers Forum!

Sense of design throughout the whole guitar.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Hmm, not sure I will either!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

A mate, who's sold many of his instruments put it very succinctly to me.

You want your instrument to LOOK good enough that someone wants to pick it up.

You want your instrument to SOUND good enough that they don't want to put it down.

Lutherie involves the mastery of many skills, the woodworking task being only one. I wouldn't expect a machinist or woodworker to inherently know how to fret or setup a guitar, but I certainly would expect it from a luthier. IMHO, fretwork and setup mastery are fundamental skill sets of a luthier. A fantastic sounding guitar with mediocre fretwork probably happened by accident.

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David Radlin
http://www.facebook.com/radlin.guitars

I totally agree. In fact, fretwork really has nothing to do with machining, that I can think of. It is a fundamental skill of the luthier, and should be of a very high level on any hand-built guitar. In fact, that was the least impressive aspect of the McPherson that just left the bench. Well, besides the bridge popping off...

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

At least the front didn't fall off.

Well, maybe my experience as a machinist can get me a job as a PLEK operator. Hmmmm...

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

I guess those don't often make it through the door of Dream Guitars.

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

When I pick up a hand built guitar I go straight to the areas of detail that I still need to improve in an attempt to gauge how well I'm doing. Of particular interest is whether or not the article represents the level craftsmanship that the luthier normally sells.

Fret work will always require craftsmanship but the skill that goes into wood selection, storage, prep, and tool and part making eventually yields a neck that minimizes the amount of fret work required. The fact is...no matter what tools you have out in the shed, craftsmanship is going to determine how well a guitar plays. The consideration of "fretwork" must start well before one touches any frets.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

[quote="Todd Stock

The ability to build an instrument does not automatically convey the ability to properly set it up for play. Based on what's come in the door here, could name a half dozen custom builders that routinely produce guitars that need extensive fret and setup work to get to what most of us would consider a minimum standard. That said, wish I could do some of what those builders do in other areas of craft.[/quote]

I am not a player myself. I can bang out a few cowboy chords and mess around in the first position.......but player I am not. But I have always been amazed by good players that can differentiate by feel when playing a bunch of guitars. This neck feels wider,strings higher at the nut, strings feels stiffer etc,etc. While for me there is virtually no difference by feel and very little in measurement.To me it really speaks to the sensitivity developed and required by seasoned players.I have always felt a bit handicaped by this and also the fact I have a bit of a tin ear. I think Todd make a very valid point.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Dare I ask.............?

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

What about price?! That's one of the first things I look at. I want to know if they doing it for the entertainment value, much like myself or are they actually making a buck. And hopefully having fun at the same time.

Truth be told I'd say the first thing I look for or notice are unique design details that work.

I guess you could use it to surface your three surface plates.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

When I got started with machining back in the 70's, the first day they handed me a steel block sawn from a billet of steel. They me gave a bastard file and a square, and told me to come back when all six sides were square and smooth. Took two days, 'cause I butched up the first block so badly it was almost shim stock when I quit. Files are still my favorite handtool - I have a HUGE selection of them from tiny to quite large.

Oh, yeah Todd. Don't forget plastics. We use lots of them in guitars - adhesives, too.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Tone, set up and playability are the most important thing to me. Of course set up can be modified but I look to see IF the set up can be modified. Is the neck angle right? String height at the bridge? Saddle height? etc...

I have owned a few guitars built by masters over the years, particularly classical guitars, and have seen many a high end come through my shop. I have seen many cosmetic flaws in these guitars.

Don't get me wrong these guitars were still beautiful beyond anything I can do so far but when you see things like pits in a finish that were just left there or binding and end graft joints that slightly missed their mark, or areas that were not filled properly on a guitar with the richest tone you have ever heard then who cares? I don't. But as a builder I do recognize that people do and quite frankly based on what I said it drives me crazy. Some people want to buy a perfect sculptured work of art inside (don't even get me started) and out while others want to create a relationship with the instrument the way it plays and sounds.

That is why for me personally I don't like fancy binding, pearl all over the place, and gaudy embellishments. I don't really even like an inlay on a head stock! I also don't like high polish gloss finish... Again, that's just me I know it's popular with many a builder and players. But if the guitar doesn't have good tone and playability then I don't care what it looks like and on the other hand if a guitar looks rather amateur in build but sounds and plays great then I'm interested.

I don't mean to imply that I like ugly guitars or that I would find it acceptable to build a guitar with sloppy joints or tool marks left in it. I do like the looks of a well balanced piece and I do enjoy the aesthetic of the guitar as a sculpture. I like wooden bindings and wood choices that create a pleasing visual aesthetic. That is what makes the guitar such an interesting piece of work. It is an artistic sculpture for the purpose of creating and artistic work of music, it lives a dual life.

My approaches are different if I am in a shop checking this out versus being presented with an instrument to inspect. When inspecting a guitar I always start by sighting the neck and personally have no tolerance for warping or any other lack of parallelism in the frets. My reasoning is very simple: warping is more often than not an intractable flaw, and fretting defects will require extensive work to correct. For anything that came out of a factory and can be assumed to be relatively new I expect that the frets will require some touch up and polishing. As long as it sounds good and is sufficiently structurally sound that its playability can be made perfect as part of a simple set-up I will be satisfied.

Aside from set-up drift, I have no tolerance for flaws in a professionally hand-made instrument. For acoustics one of the first places I like to look is inside, because the only reason to clean up otherwise invisible squeezeout and clean up any rough edges is personal pride in immaculate execution of one's craft. It should be as beautiful as the outside.

I fully agree with several of the other posts in this thread regarding the spirit of a build. Appropriateness of execution that matches the intent of the build should always dictate the perspective of evaluation. There will never be a valid excuse for structural flaws.

Ultimately, regardless of our own preferences for order of inspection/evaluation steps I think most of us have similar expectations.