Official Luthiers Forum!

Great thread.

What strikes me is that there is truth and validity in every single post - even when a post seems to contradict the one before it. Such is the nature of this beast. We are dealing with a very subjective thing.

Phil

(I'm drawn first to the overall appearance - headstock, bridge, and body shape - do they make up a whole that is cohesive and a little bit unique. Does the instrument look like I want to pick it up and be seen wearing it? Next is sound, followed closely by playability. Next is fit and finish. I've played sloppy fit and finish guitars from factories that have sounded good. But have yet to play a sloppy hand built guitar that I think sounds good. Wonder why that is?)

+1. Extremely well put.

First thing I look at is the string spacing.
I showed Steve Kimock a Weiss style I built,
and he just played it,
didn't look at it at all,
even though it is made of beautiful flamed koa!

I just play it to see how it feels and how it sounds. Then I look at the design elements. I try not to look too closely at little gaps and things like that. I've yet to find a guitar that doesn't have flaws, so why go looking for them? If it's pleasing to my eye, it feels good, and it sounds good, it's good IMHO. Of course, if I'm a buyer, the more I'm charged the close I'm going to look. If the guitar is listed at $10,000+, it had better be as close to perfect as humanly possible. If it's $2000 or $3000, I expect the playability and sound to be fantastic, and the fit and finish to be little better than a factory guitar (which isn't difficult, believe be).

For example, my Taylor had a huge, UGLY gap near the fingerboard where it was mortised into the body. Sloppy work. That had better not show up on a $3000 small shop guitar. There was also the occasional binding goof where something went wrong and they made a little patch here and there. Yeah, I noticed it...no one else would. That wouldn't bother me on any guitar that was reasonably priced.

Here's one of the reasons I posted the original question.

Really nice peghead but something else really jumped out at me. Pretty obvious but what else do you see when you look at this 'beautiful' work?

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Thank You and Best To All

I really wanted to add that all the comments and observations and very, very valuable. Thanks so much for all the insight.

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Thank You and Best To All

Hi Larry,
The G string nut slot (snicker) was cut incorrectly (the others seem a little off as well).

Other than the nut being wonky it looks to me like the peghead is tilted off to the right, and the treble side wall is thicker than the bass side wall of the peghead slots. It's hard to tell in the picture but it looks like the headstock is twisted in comparison to the neck.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

The tuner plates are not a very good fit. They are a shade too long at the nut end of the headstock.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

But that's not a custom guitar, is it? If we're talking used, Asian factory guitars, that's a bit different.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

At first glance:

-Nut slots are way off

-Tuner plates overhang the headstock

-Carving around the slots for the tuners is not very symetrical

-Is the guitar new? If so, the lacquer around the nut shouldn't be damaged like that, and ditto for the wood around the fingerboard.

-the fingerboard past the zero fret dives in towards the headstock

-the shape of the nut is very harsh, especially on the bass side. Doesn't look like it's been softened at all.

-the logo appears to be rotated slightly...maybe that's just the angle of the picture?

-there's something funny going on with the headstock veneer just behind the nut. Looks like a separate piece was inlayed there, or something. You can almost see a line.

And that's not looking very hard. Other than the nut slots and the tuners hanging off the neck, I personally wouldn't really be bothered by the rest, but I can definitely see it.

edit: I suspect if I ever meet any of you in person, you're not going to want to show me any of your guitars. LOL.

Wow you guys are good. I noticed the string spacing and the ramps but missed most everything else. Not sue if I'll post my finished guitar now...

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Thank You and Best To All

Good thread, with alot of interesting comments. so..............

Where do [b]I[b] look first?

The soundhole. If a soundhole is cut out, and the edge is left basically square I can't get past that. It takes a piece of sandpaper and 30 seconds or so to round the edge.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I think it's really funny that I said string spacing before the picture came up!
I guess I'm psycho,
I mean psychic.

As a builder I always look first at the areas that I find challenging. Some areas would be the fit of the nut, heel to body and fretboard to body transition, constant width on the back binding in the upper bout, and any miters. If all that is good then chances are the builder knows what he/she is doing and has that obsessive/compulsive/anal retentive personality so necessary in lutherie.

As a player it's setup, fretwork, and of course the tone has to speak to me. I could live with some lapses of fit and finish if I love the way it sounds and plays but the good ones seem to be good in all departments in most cases.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Sense of design throughout the whole guitar.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Hmm, not sure I will either!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

A mate, who's sold many of his instruments put it very succinctly to me.

You want your instrument to LOOK good enough that someone wants to pick it up.

You want your instrument to SOUND good enough that they don't want to put it down.

Lutherie involves the mastery of many skills, the woodworking task being only one. I wouldn't expect a machinist or woodworker to inherently know how to fret or setup a guitar, but I certainly would expect it from a luthier. IMHO, fretwork and setup mastery are fundamental skill sets of a luthier. A fantastic sounding guitar with mediocre fretwork probably happened by accident.

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David Radlin
http://www.facebook.com/radlin.guitars

I totally agree. In fact, fretwork really has nothing to do with machining, that I can think of. It is a fundamental skill of the luthier, and should be of a very high level on any hand-built guitar. In fact, that was the least impressive aspect of the McPherson that just left the bench. Well, besides the bridge popping off...

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

At least the front didn't fall off.

Well, maybe my experience as a machinist can get me a job as a PLEK operator. Hmmmm...

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

I guess those don't often make it through the door of Dream Guitars.

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

When I pick up a hand built guitar I go straight to the areas of detail that I still need to improve in an attempt to gauge how well I'm doing. Of particular interest is whether or not the article represents the level craftsmanship that the luthier normally sells.

Fret work will always require craftsmanship but the skill that goes into wood selection, storage, prep, and tool and part making eventually yields a neck that minimizes the amount of fret work required. The fact is...no matter what tools you have out in the shed, craftsmanship is going to determine how well a guitar plays. The consideration of "fretwork" must start well before one touches any frets.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

[quote="Todd Stock

The ability to build an instrument does not automatically convey the ability to properly set it up for play. Based on what's come in the door here, could name a half dozen custom builders that routinely produce guitars that need extensive fret and setup work to get to what most of us would consider a minimum standard. That said, wish I could do some of what those builders do in other areas of craft.[/quote]

I am not a player myself. I can bang out a few cowboy chords and mess around in the first position.......but player I am not. But I have always been amazed by good players that can differentiate by feel when playing a bunch of guitars. This neck feels wider,strings higher at the nut, strings feels stiffer etc,etc. While for me there is virtually no difference by feel and very little in measurement.To me it really speaks to the sensitivity developed and required by seasoned players.I have always felt a bit handicaped by this and also the fact I have a bit of a tin ear. I think Todd make a very valid point.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!