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Just make sure your local woods are legally harvested. Not so easy to confirm as you might think. Lacey still applies to local woods. You are on the hook for due diligence!

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I understand Gibson's wanting to settle. If your company is raided enough times, goods are confiscated, and production disrupted, no charges filed and an "investigation" dragged on, you might also want to get it all behind you. Especially if they offer to return the most significant part of their "lootings".

I can take you to where each and every one grew , so I know the actual source .
Just for the sake of discussion , please outline an example of how a local wood can be harvested in violation of Lacey .

Lucky you! Most of us are not so fortunate.



I won't speak for Waddy, but I think a big issue here is that most of us are not the "harvesters" and never will be. And in the instance of the Indian wood in the Gibson case, the wood was NOT harvested in violation of ANY law. TMK that was never in question. Isn't it the intent of Lacey to prevent illegal harvest? Gibson was raided by federal agents, guns drawn, a million dollars worth of inventory confiscated from a relatively small business during a recession and tied up for months, employees' livelihoods threatened, because the wrong codes were used in India. That does not sit well with me.

Were laws broken? Apparently so. It's easy to vilify Gibson for that, as has been done in this thread, but the truth is that most or all companies who have been using imported wood have been breaking the law in some manner. Does Martin use EIR fretboard blanks? LMI received the same shipments of Madagascar ebony for which Gibson was raided. It's likely I have some of that wood in my shop right now.

What happened to Gibson, and the manner in which it happened, should be of great interest to all Americans, regardless of what wood they use, or whether they use any at all. This was abuse of government power, pure and simple.

Are you a certified logger, and sawyer? If not, my understanding is, any tree you cut down and use commercially (guitars for sale) could be, depending on local laws, illegal in Lacey terms. I understand you can use if for your own use, if it's on your property, but not for sale, if it will leave the country - same as any other wood, exotic, or not.

This article in "Woodshop News" was decent - http://www.woodshopnews.com/component/c ... department.

One quote I hadn't seen from Gibson was: "This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars. An important part of the settlement is that we are getting back the materials seized in a second armed raid on our factories and we have formal acknowledgement that we can continue to source rosewood and ebony fingerboards from India, as we have done for many decades."

Seems to settle the Indian Rosewood and Ebony issue.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Actually, it doesn't. The settlement was with Gibson, so it does nothing for the rest of us. I think that is one of Filippo's points.

Ottoerhound, did you get a permit to harvest those trees? I'm not as well versed with Pa law as I am Md, but if you didn't get any type of permit, then using it for guitars that will be sold is probably a violation of Lacy.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

So if I buy the wood from someone how do I prove that it was legally cut down?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Well, now that this is done don't you feel the world is a better place?

Stupid government! It seems to be in business of hurting those that pay their salaries. More rules, regulations, programs and ways to extort money. No help at all - just get in the way and take.

This woile thing is a great example of how the government is so messed up.

Not that I have an opinion on this.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

+1

Stupid government indeed! And when we, the people sit idly by and allow it to continue, what does that make us?

Can someone give me an example of a less regulated country with freedom and prosperity similar to the US?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Probably not, but we can still complain!

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

There is no need for freedom and prosperity, and intelligent lawmaking and appropriate law enforcement to be mutually exclusive. The US government took its eye off the ball on this one.

AUSTRALIA!!!!

I say Taiwan is there, probably more prosperity (despite what most others think) because of low debt, better fiscal policies, etc. and the only freedom we don't have in Taiwan is the right to have weapons...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Are you a certified logger, and sawyer? If not, my understanding is, any tree you cut down and use commercially (guitars for sale) could be, depending on local laws, illegal in Lacey terms. I understand you can use if for your own use, if it's on your property, but not for sale, if it will leave the country - same as any other wood, exotic, or not.
Ottoerhound, did you get a permit to harvest those trees? I'm not as well versed with Pa law as I am Md, but if you didn't get any type of permit, then using it for guitars that will be sold is probably a violation of Lacy.[/quote]
Doesn't apply in Pa. unless you are harvesting on public land . We do not have licensing for loggers or sawyers in Pa.
What section of Lacey applies ? I would like to see it in print .
Ironically , on Monday , I got a very nice silver maple for free . It was being cut down less than 1/2 block from me and I asked . They even loaded it onto my truck for me . I climbed in this tree when I was a kid and it was on a property that my aunt and uncle used to live on . Full circle , you might say .
When I see something like this happening , I ask . The worst they can say is no , but these guys were happy to not have to haul it away in this case as with this one .
I just sent some Walnut to Germany a few weeks ago in trade for some Austrian Spruce and it went off without a hitch in both directions .

Australia is a very regulated country .

Did you get all the appropriate documentation with that Austrian spruce?

Customs aren't going to be sniffing for wood... they have a hard enough time looking for illegal drugs, weapons, and explosives already (and some does get through, for example there was a case where someone accidentally brought a stick of dynamite from Argentina to the US and nobody found out until the person reported it). The only way you get busted if they decide to randomly inspect your shipment and look at the shipping manifest, and seriously they have no way of knowing what wood it is or where it came from unless accompanied by relevant paperwork. I mean, a seller in Germany will ship Honduran Mahogany to any country and will declare it as African to avoid paperworks, after all few can tell the difference.

The real issue with Lacey is that how are you going to know if the wood you bought on ebay is legally harvested? What if you bought from a luthier in Germany, do you have any way of knowing or proving that the proper lacey laws are followed? If I bought wood from the US how do I know if whoever cut it down is a licensed logger?

The law applies to more than just Americans, it applies to anyone who trades with the US, or even does tours in the US.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Otterhound, my point is that Lacey requires ALL laws of ALL jurisdictions for harvesting AND transportation. Were the guys who cut down the silver maple wearing proper vision protection, hearing protection, and not in violation of any OSHA regulations? All that and more is necessary to comply with Lacey. Can anybody actually document that?
On the other hand, could it be proven in court that a violation occured? Probably not.
And just because a transaction went off without a hitch doesn't mean it was legal. Drug deals happen every day. As I understand it though, to be criminally responsible under Lacey, you have to know that the wood was illeagaly harvested.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Lacey only applies, as I understand it, on shipments of wood over $2500 in value. Usually pallet loads. It was designed by the US Wood Industry Association, and the US Furniture Industry to address competition from foreign suppliers, and to force foreign furniture makers to buy wood from the US for their competitive products. Anyhow, the point being that most guitars are valued at over $2500, so Lacey applies, though the amount of wood is negligible. Your trade for something might not have tipped the scale.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Maybe I should try to replant all of my wood . Yes , the tree guys were likely exceeding OSHA regs. from what I saw .
The phrase "ALL laws of ALL jurisdictions" is very misleading . It could imply that I must meet the laws outside of where the activity takes place . Should it not be ALL laws of the jurisdiction where the activity takes place ?
I do doubt that 3 sets of walnut was going to raise any red flags or 3 sets of spruce .
Interesting that a law that is put in place to protect domestic operations could be used to prosecute the very domestic activities that it is purported to protect .
Catch 22 anyone ?

Oh, but they didn't think of that when they were paying lobbyists millions of $$$ to get it done.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Roger Knox wrote:
"As I understand it though, to be criminally responsible under Lacey, you have to know that the wood was illeagaly harvested."

The way I understand it is if a relevant law was broken within the jurisdiction where the wood was harvested, the wood is illegal. So, if the walnut you bought from the guy in Pennsylvania was illegally cut, say without the proper permits, that wood is not legally your property. In fact, it never was, even if you and the seller both acted in good faith. In that sense it's like stolen goods: if F&W tracks it down, they can confiscate it. I believe this is _not_considered a 'punishment' under law.

I'm less sure about illegal actions committed along the way. In other words, if the wood was legally harvested, but the driver of the truck was not licensed, it does not seem to me as though that should be a Lacey violation, but I could be wrong. If a permit was required to move the wood across some political boundary, and was not obtained, that would be.

You incur criminal liability in one of two ways:
1) you knew there was something fishy, or,
2) you didn't try to find out if there was.
That's the 'due diligence' thing. My understanding of that is that a 'reasonable' level of diligence is expected. If you're approached in a parking lot by somebody named John Smith who wants to unload a bunch of Brazilian rosewood cheap, and in a hurry, and will only take cash, that's a pretty good sign that something is amiss, and you'd be well advised to pass on that deal. I'm not sure it would do much good even if you asked for his ID. If you buy your wood from a reputable dealer who's been in business for a while, and they call you about an old stash they just got from the widow of some luthier, you would probably want to check the obit before you jump in the car, but I think the feds would accept that as a due level of diligence. Remember, that does not mean the wood can't be confiscated: if Dead Fred got it off the back of a truck in the parking lot, and it turns out to have been illegal wood, you never really owned it in the first place.

It might seem sort of useless to bother with due diligence if they can take the guitar away from you anyway. However, if you don't do it, the criminal penalties for Lacey violations can run to six figure fines and prison time. Spin the chamber, and pull the trigger....

I'll agree it's a little misleading, it only includes jurisdictions where the harvesting and transportation occurs. My point is that it includes a whole host of treaties, laws, regulations, codes, and ordinances that have nothing to do with the original intent of the Lacey Act, or it's latest revision.
edit: From what I've read, the unlicenced trucker_could_be a violation of Lacey, if F&W chose to interpret it that way. That's a much better explaination of criminal liability.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Some of you may have seen this WSJ article a while back, but the recent discussion reminded me of it. A piano dealer who imported some antique pianos was raided by 2 dozen federal agents and ended up paying some heavy fines because he asked for help in filling out the correct paperwork to ensure Lacey compliance. IMO, it's another example of misuse of Lacey. The pianos were antiques clearly made well before the Lacey revisions, and probably before CITIES began being enforced in 1975.

Here's a link and a quote:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 23268.html