Official Luthiers Forum!

You need to read the post by Mr. Berkowitz.

Filippo, it is not misleading terminology. You're simply not familiar with common civil procedure. When anyone -- individual, business, or government agency -- is materially involved in an investigation, it is imperative that they not comment on ongoing matters. Period. The information in any ongoing legal matter is confidential. It is legally privileged information, and there are rules governing its disclosure. Judges don't like it when parties try a case in the public arena, that is why there are often gag orders to tamp down on public disclosures prior to a trial. No governing agency -- be it the fire department, police, or arm of the state or federal government charged with the task of maintaining order as defined by the laws passed by the legislature -- is going to discuss the details of an ongoing investigation. First, it's an investigation; it isn't yet a finding of fact. Gibson chose to settle and not proceed to a trial which would be a means of evaluating the evidence against them.

In the case of USFWS, I was there along with other members of the NAMM Import/Export task force to discuss what could be done to streamline the regulatory process within the context of current law and agency rule making. We were not there to discuss Gibson. We very likely would not have been granted a meeting. It wasn't part of the topic. I cannot remember how it even came up, but I simply threw it out there. If we had gone in with the intent to discuss Gibson, we would be referred to the Department of Justice to handle responses of USFWS within the context of an ongoing investigation into Gibson. Since in this hypothetical, we weren't party to the investigation, we would not have been provided any information by DOJ.

I did misread that portion of your post, but I suppose I still don't understand your complaint. What is it that you want the agency to comment? DOJ brought the action based on regulations imposed by the legislature on USFWS to enforce. Gibson chose not to try the case. They settled. As part of the settlement, they conceded that they violated the law. What is it on which you want the agency(s) -- USFWS/DOJ to comment?

Do you not have any unanswered questions about the case, and the manner in which it all played out, David?

I sure do.

Sure, Charlie. I have questions. But that's not how Filippo posed the question. My read of his comments went to what seemed to consternation that the agencies wouldn't comment further, as if there was some obligation. That's not how legal cases work. If they settle, the terms of the settlement are often, but not always, public and everything else goes away. I don't know whether it's possible, but perhaps one could FOIA DOJ/USFWS regarding their evidence against Gibson. That might prove an avenue of inquiry.

I'm not sure how fruitful such an endeavor would be. We already know about the emails detailing Gibson's pursuit of contraband materials, that go to Gibson's willingness to circumvent Lacey. The thing we will never know is whether a court of law would conclude that the fingerboards, given the evidence, and the swings in the political landscape and regulations in Madagascar, actually constitute a Lacey violation. Asking USFWS or DOJ isn't going to help, as they will stand behind their case. Gibson chose not to pursue a trying of fact and in so doing, castrated the process. It's financially better for them, but it doesn't answer that question of the legality of the fingerboards.

As I understand it, to get a new harmonized code is very difficult because you need to get all countries to agree on it, so that is very unlikely to happen. However, the last 2 digits of the harmonized codes are reserved for each individual country's use so all India has to do is to allocate a number to the last 2 digits of a code to fingerboard blanks, and make that particular harmonized code legal to export. It is up to India to fix this. Every country does this sort of thing. My own country does not use the last 2 digits for most of the harmonized codes, but the USA does use the last 2 digits for many items. Sounds simple, but the Indians need to be persuaded to implement it when the current system has been working fine for 30 years, and the only country that has a problem with it is the USA. Irritating yes. Good luck getting it sorted.

Peter

Pure and unabashed sarcasm on my part . My apologies if you misread it .

Where is that sarcasm font we need so badly???

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Personally, I get a kick out of this whole notion of whether the parts were finished or not. Of course they were. They were blanks.

From my background in manufacturing, i can tell you there are many stages a part goes through from raw material to finished product. Hey, we all know that here, as guitar builders, so its a no brainer. But in manufacturing facilities, every piece has a part number, and it is common practice to assign "in-process" part numbers to track parts for accounting purposes. And, depending on plant capabilities, it is also common practice for subcontractors to get involved with the various processes. For example, foundries supply castings, which the OEM uses to drill the holes they need, etc. When they buy those castings, they are buying, well, castings. In the case of Gibson, what they were buying was an "in-process" part called, for whatever reason, a "blank." And those blanks had to meet certain standards to be acceptable.

After all, each blank has already gone through several manufacturing steps from the time it was a tree. And if they arrieved at Gibson's plant with, say, bark still attached, half round, crooked, etc, the shipment would have been rejected. India makes finished parts to be used in the construciton of guitars, and those parts are caled blanks. if they are not usable blanks, Gibson wouldn't buy them. So as far as India is concerned, they should consider them as finished parts, period, end of discussion.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I still think there may be some politics going on here, but in a different way than most people see it. To me, it smacks of someone who is "Going to make something happen."

It just seems to me that someone in a high office decided to enforce the changes to the Lacey Act for the good of us all. But how to get everyone's attention? What you really need is a well chosen, high profile target. Gibson's dealings with Madagascar were questionable. So why not them? Wait until they make some minor slip up, then blow it way out of proportion and pounce. Loudly. Hey, Gibson is definately high profile, and also big enough to absorb the hit. A much more tempting target than a small operation, everyone worldwide knows about them. Make a big show of it, go in force, get lots of attention.

Next thing you know, all around the world everyone is talking about Lacey and deforestation. If a ploy, it worked like a dream. Everyone is now talking about it, several manufacturers have already changed to offering models not made from those sources, and everyone is paying more attention to sourcing their wood. In short, the agency achieved their agenda. Gibson is still in business, and with the case settled out of court, we'll never know if the tactics would hold up or not.

Now everyone goes on with their lives, except we are all more conscious of the environment and wood sourcing. They win.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I doubt the Gibson employees held at gunpoint and sent home from their job feel it was a win.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

They're not the ones who won.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

The true irony of this is that I am committed to using domestic woods only , so what happens in Madagascar , India and inside of Gibson is little more than passing interest to me .
My real concern goes to a place that is prohibited on the OLF and it begins with the letter P and how that could affect us all .

Just make sure your local woods are legally harvested. Not so easy to confirm as you might think. Lacey still applies to local woods. You are on the hook for due diligence!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I understand Gibson's wanting to settle. If your company is raided enough times, goods are confiscated, and production disrupted, no charges filed and an "investigation" dragged on, you might also want to get it all behind you. Especially if they offer to return the most significant part of their "lootings".

I can take you to where each and every one grew , so I know the actual source .
Just for the sake of discussion , please outline an example of how a local wood can be harvested in violation of Lacey .

Lucky you! Most of us are not so fortunate.



I won't speak for Waddy, but I think a big issue here is that most of us are not the "harvesters" and never will be. And in the instance of the Indian wood in the Gibson case, the wood was NOT harvested in violation of ANY law. TMK that was never in question. Isn't it the intent of Lacey to prevent illegal harvest? Gibson was raided by federal agents, guns drawn, a million dollars worth of inventory confiscated from a relatively small business during a recession and tied up for months, employees' livelihoods threatened, because the wrong codes were used in India. That does not sit well with me.

Were laws broken? Apparently so. It's easy to vilify Gibson for that, as has been done in this thread, but the truth is that most or all companies who have been using imported wood have been breaking the law in some manner. Does Martin use EIR fretboard blanks? LMI received the same shipments of Madagascar ebony for which Gibson was raided. It's likely I have some of that wood in my shop right now.

What happened to Gibson, and the manner in which it happened, should be of great interest to all Americans, regardless of what wood they use, or whether they use any at all. This was abuse of government power, pure and simple.

Are you a certified logger, and sawyer? If not, my understanding is, any tree you cut down and use commercially (guitars for sale) could be, depending on local laws, illegal in Lacey terms. I understand you can use if for your own use, if it's on your property, but not for sale, if it will leave the country - same as any other wood, exotic, or not.

This article in "Woodshop News" was decent - http://www.woodshopnews.com/component/c ... department.

One quote I hadn't seen from Gibson was: "This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars. An important part of the settlement is that we are getting back the materials seized in a second armed raid on our factories and we have formal acknowledgement that we can continue to source rosewood and ebony fingerboards from India, as we have done for many decades."

Seems to settle the Indian Rosewood and Ebony issue.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Actually, it doesn't. The settlement was with Gibson, so it does nothing for the rest of us. I think that is one of Filippo's points.

Ottoerhound, did you get a permit to harvest those trees? I'm not as well versed with Pa law as I am Md, but if you didn't get any type of permit, then using it for guitars that will be sold is probably a violation of Lacy.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

So if I buy the wood from someone how do I prove that it was legally cut down?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Well, now that this is done don't you feel the world is a better place?

Stupid government! It seems to be in business of hurting those that pay their salaries. More rules, regulations, programs and ways to extort money. No help at all - just get in the way and take.

This woile thing is a great example of how the government is so messed up.

Not that I have an opinion on this.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

+1

Stupid government indeed! And when we, the people sit idly by and allow it to continue, what does that make us?

Can someone give me an example of a less regulated country with freedom and prosperity similar to the US?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Probably not, but we can still complain!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

There is no need for freedom and prosperity, and intelligent lawmaking and appropriate law enforcement to be mutually exclusive. The US government took its eye off the ball on this one.