Official Luthiers Forum!

I've been using hide for joining the plates, bracing, and bridgeplate and bridge. LMI white for the end blocks, fretboard (clamped against a flat caul for at least 24 hrs) and closing the box. Doubt that I'll change. Rick Turner's posts got me using epoxy for fretboards for a while but I didn't like it and went back to LMI and really have not seen any issues.

If you don't have a plate warmer you can lay your heating blanket out on the bench at around 150-200 degrees and put your parts on it before gluing. A toothbrush and hot water from your glue pot works pretty well for final cleanup after squeezeout removal followed by a wipe with paper towels and a shot with the heat gun for final drying.

Definitely glue the X one limb at a time.

I may be crazy but when I started putting hide in the fret slots when fretting I thought it made a positive impact on the sound.

John, is Martin including LMI white in the tonality study? I bet it's very close to hide.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

...plywood is probably not the best choice for something that needs to remain straight under force, especially the way i see it oriented in the foto...it is quite flexible. a chunk of cedar post would serve better for this application, IMHO

Laurent - Great idea...I'll try it next time. I love hide glue, but it definitely takes some prep work in terms of planning how to work quickly but precisely. Also requires finely fitted joints and mating surfaces. All good things, in my book.

One area where I have found hide glue does not work is if you are gluing veneer to a board in order to mill it into binding with an attached line. The glue just won't hold through the bending process. I find gorilla glue perfect for this task. Other than this, I find it an agreeable glue.

Any suggestions on a source for 300 gm strength glue?

Yeah, work really fast!

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I wonder if you could use an iron too, like with veneers.

_________________
"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

I really don't understand the 'problem' people have in closing a box when using HHG. There are a few ways to achieve a relatively calm and stress free method. I glue size the edge of the Sides/Linings, position the Back on and use a warm clothes iron to reconstitute the glue. Works just fine. Take 1 hour over it if you really want to. In the past I used to feed the glue in a bit at a time using a spatula but it's much harder to control the squeeze out.

Here's another way.



You know if someone had asked me a few years ago if the glue made a difference in sound, I would have said that's absolute nonsense. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. My experimentation on electrics that are otherwise as identical as I can make them, changing only from set neck to bolt on, is making me question that. If no glue can make a difference, perhaps the kind of glue can make a difference too? I'm definitely open to the possibility.

I'm actually in the process of switching over to LMII's white and HHG, for various reasons. My understanding is the heat resistance of LMII and HHG is far superior to Titebond. The other reason is I just really prefer working with LMII's glue. It's just more pleasant to work with, IMHO. Nothing against Titebond at all.

Grumpy also has a youtube of gluing with HHG. It's a matter of practice, as I see it. Getting it down to a fast, but not rushed process. He also uses two passes with the glue. Second faster than the first.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Good video's. So they just hit the rim with glue and on with the top....... I've been putting glue on both sides

"Can I ask a stupid question ?"..................."Of course Rudy,.... I know you can."

L.

_________________
Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Here's my quickie video from a few years back:

http://youtu.be/y2SuYAYJ5oQ

Notice that I'm not rushing, nor do I ever feel rushed. The "trick" is to have everything at hand and ready to go, and to -know- where everything is. Just having things nearby doesn't mean you'll be able to reach for it without looking for it, but notice that my hand always lands right on whatever I was reaching for.

Okay, but I've done this a bunch of times, you say, so of course I have it down to a T! Correct. All you have to do to "get there" is to do dry runs. Set everything up, even a bottle in the water bath(but leave the bottle empty, 'cept for a handful of nuts/bolts/lead sinkers to keep it from floating)and do full-on dry runs. Go through all the moves, from heating the rim to applying the glue to the last go bar. Take note of where you stumble, and correct it. And time yourself. You'll no doubt notice I have music playing in the background. I always do, and other than keeping me company, music is also a good timer! If the song ended and you're still working at it, you've messed up!

And when you do mess up with HHG, don't panic. Just pull the pieces apart, clean them up with a wet rag and hot water, dry the surfaces with your handy dandy, ever-present hair dryer, and go at it again.

I haven't read the whole thread here, but if I can offer up a piece of advice? Don't try to use HHG for everything, especially your first time around. Start with smaller, simpler pieces, like braces and such. Get a feel for the glue, get confident with it, and after a few more builds, you'll find yourself reaching for it for nearly everything. And don't feel like it has to be the only glue you use! At last count, I think I am up to about 9 different glues/adhesives in the shop....

How do you line up the top with the body? You seemed to do it pretty quickly without really being able to see anything.

All 6 braces forward of the bridge are inlet into the ribs, and do so with a nice, snug fit, so everything kinda snaps together and lines up perfectly. I feather the rear legs of the braces, so that's why I'm concentrating at the rear, where I have some distinct lines drawn to help me line up. In short, I drop the front down and wiggle a bit to "snap" it in place, then holding the rear up a bit, line up that end.

I glued a back to the sides this evening, and shot a short video of it. I talk a bit in this one, so maybe it'll clarify things a bit.

It can't get simpler than this, can it?

http://youtu.be/TC78Z9zFG0I

Hmmm here I was thinking about trying hide glue and after reading this thread am sort of more inspired to just stick with LMI White

Lets see

Hide glue: have to be real fast and accurate, have a heat gun ready just in case, hot water, heating pot, make different salt blends, etc..

Titebond: grab the bottle, smear it on and clamp the joint. Boom done.

I still will give it a try but it seems like a hassle compared to good old trusty Titebond. As for sound I'd have to really really be convinced that there is any quality difference. I don't think just one Penn State study is gonna do it either.

Have you watched my video? Can it be simpler than that?

If I were doing it with titebond, I'd have to wrestle that sucker as it swam all around as I clamped it. Hide glue's actually a lot easier, since it "grabs" instantly.

Fast? I'm not fast or rushing; just well-organized.

Salt? Salt blends? What's that?

A heat gun/hair drier is a staple in my shop, and not just for warming parts. I wash-off any and all glue as I apply it, and dry-off the parts right away with the heat gun/hair drier. Even for those tasks I use Titebond for, the heat gun/hair drier is right there and in full use. And that hot water? Again, even when using Titebond, I have to have the hot water for cleanup; works way better than cold water. $10 for the glue pot/water bath, and $10-15 for the gun/drier. Essential to any and every shop.

I'm not trying nor hoping to convert anyone; y'all use what ya wishes. I'm just trying to help those that -want- to try HHG.

Thanks for the video, Mario. It certainly does look easy when you do it.

Ah yes I missed your vid, that's great. I still rope my tops on so that would be really difficult for me. The thing that definitely draws me to HHG is the quickness of set and the ability to just rub joints together.

I did an experiment with a guitar I built last year where I used CA for almost every joint. Talk about fast!

JF I am not talking to just you or singling you out but you have spoken a often heard idea that you can rub a bit of yellow glue on something and slap it together.
This is a big misconception. That you can just slap things together with Titebond. To use Titebond and other yellow glues to best advantage you need to be as careful and organized as with hide glue. Your joints need to be as perfect, you need to have rehearsed the glue up, you need to be quick. Titebond will skim pretty quickly in a 45% RH 70° shop (LMI white more so.) You need to judge Titebond's (I am including LMI white and others here.) viscosity and adjust to conditions and the task at hand. This idea that you can grab the bottle and slap it on has been stated many times and it constitutes poor woodworking practice. Sizing a joint, wetting out one side, adding a little distilled water, etc., there are a lot of little tricks to using yellow glue. One of the main differences is with hide, heat is your friend, with yellow, cool surfaces give you more time to work.
Mario's organization and streamlined efficiency is the proper model for any kind of glue up when using any kind of glue.
If one is working the way one should, switching to hide should be pretty easy taking in to account the slightly different needs of hide. I.E. warm shop, warm surfaces, etc.
Don't let the convenience of yellow glue lure one into less than perfect practices in woodworking. I guess if nothing else the use of hide might get folks to tighten up their techniques but they should be there anyway.
L.

_________________
Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Oh sure, I take great measures to make sure my joinery is as perfect as I can make it before gluing. I also make sure the glue is fresh but I never gave it much thought past that. My shop is always at 45% RH temperature is the same year round or pretty darn close. In repairs I sometimes find it necessary to dilute Titebond but almost every time I use it it's right out of the bottle. I'm open to any suggested reading you may have on techniques for using PVA. I could be doing it wrong but so far it seems to be holding up well.

That is great info, Link - thanks for sharing it. I think I have been guilty at times of some of the infractions you mentioned.

The items in quotes above are things I am not familiar with. Would you mind expanding a little on them? In particular, I'm interested in what you mean by sizing the joint, and what advantages it offers. Also, what does wetting out one side accomplish? Thanks in advance.

Great advise in this thread.

As Mario and others allude to, its just about a refined technique. I build acoustic lap steel guitars, so it was at first difficult with such large joints, but worth the effort to seek out how its done.

I eventually gave up on the press, and went back to using individual clamps for closing the box. A warm shop, Mario's glue bottle and a steady but quick hand with the clamps and you will get there with a minimum of fuss.

When showing this to a local luthier, he asked about why the hide glue guitars sounded better. After much thought, I believe it is as much about refined technique as it is the glue quality. But the guitars are also made differently - the parts are almost always preheated next to the air heater which is drying those parts down to almost nothing, and so creates a stronger arch and longevity as a result.

I've said many times, in many circles, that 99% of any real tone/power benefits of using HHG comes from the fact that it forces the user to really refine his/her joinery chops. No matter how good and precise and careful you are already, when you start using HHG, you'll suddenly find yourself scrutinizing further!

What you don't see in my video is the 15-20 minutes I spent refining the fit between the back and sides and the braces. My dish is about 15 years old, and is showing its age and is no longer "perfect", so I use a foam pad(floating floor underlay) between the back and the dish, and use some paper shims in a couple of known low spots. I do as many dry runs as I need until the fit is perfect! To check the fit, I turn off the lights and use my flashlight inside the rim and check for any light coming through. To check the backside, I use a small mirror. I don't get as fussy with the checking when gluing up because I'm confident that it was perfect; I just double-check after clamping to make sure there aren't any glaring errors(I had a wood sliver find its way between the rim and back once, and was able to quickly separate the back from the rim and start-over, so -always- check!).

I have no big secrets just lots of little things that add up. Here are just a few ideas that I am sure everybody has though of.

One thing, is to be meticulous about keeping the nozzle of your glue bottle clean. Little bits of dried or semi dried glue that live in and around the nozzle can contaminate your joint. It would only take one little piece of that to screw up a top seam.

Fine tune your glue with distilled water. Glue can be too thick when you get it or after it has sat in a half empty bottle for a while or for certain tasks. Don't over do it, just a tad goes a long way. Experience will dictate when and where this is appropriate.

Some woods can be a bit hydrophobic. Spanish cedar can be like that. You wipe a little glue on with your finger and wipe it again and it almost wipes off cleanly, the wood is not wet out by the glue. Not good. Glue, especially if it is a bit thick will have trouble wetting out the surface. A slightly damp rag wiped on the surface first will help overcome this as can just working the glue around but again here a slightly thinner glue can help. The next two ideas or tips help with this as well.

A roller is your friend. If one can get really good clamping pressure then just wiping some glue around can work ok but often in guitar building you can't get really high pressures so a perfect joint is a must (I always strive for perfect joinery on any woodworking project) and a firm foam roller will apply glue fast and evenly. You will minimize squeeze out and mess. Along with a roller, a tooth brush is a great glue applicator, acid brush that has been trimmed to about 2/3 it's bristle length with scissors works well. It needs to be groomed to remove the loose hairs.

Apply glue to both surfaces when possible. Not always possible but if I can I will apply a very light amount of glue to one surface, (sometimes applying it and wiping off with a credit card "wetting it out" ) and apply a normal amount to the other surface. Again not always possible as in braces.

Yellow glue doesn't set properly if it is much colder than 60°. One has to work really fast if it is much hotter than 80° Nice cool glue and parts with the prospect of warming up is perfect. Glue ups in the morning can work really well. It all depends on your area, shop conditions, etc. I wouldn't hesitate to glue up kitchen cabinets at 60° but not a guitar. I want optimal conditions.

The sizing thing has to do with end grain and I can't think of a application for guitar building.

I am sure there are a lot of things I haven't mentioned but the point is to think through all these processes. I don't like to leave things to chance, there are enough things of Murphy's doing that can throw a wrench in the process. Good habits, attention to detail are what it is about.
What ever glue I use, I want to do the best job I can and to do that I need to understand the glue and it's properties, the wood or materials etc. Sometimes we can get away with less than careful work but it will come back to bite you at some point.
Anyway I am starting to get off on a tangent. My main point is that one should be mindful using any glue, not just hide glue.

As Mario said,

I think the user should do that with any glue with the added benefit of being a easy switch to hide.

L.

_________________
Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.