Official Luthiers Forum!

Filippo, I doubt anyone took offense to your religious doubts.
You are right, glue is at the top of the heap of the "faith issues" in guitar building.

To the OP, hide glue can be used for everything, with practice.
But so can Titebond, or LMI white.

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Indeed it does, and is the method I use for closing the box (actually a plastic squeeze bottle instead of a knife, but same idea). I glue the ribs to soundboard using individual lining blocks, so quick grab there is a major bonus

I use the Behlen's 164g stuff, and it works great, but I'll try 192g next time I'm ordering from LMI or somewhere that has it. Nowhere that I would say not to use hide glue. I usually use LMI white glue on inlays just so I don't have to heat up the glue pot, and sometimes on other little things like fingerboard and headstock binding. The bridge is the most sacred hide glue joint for me, because it's one of the most stressed and most necessary to resist creep and be reglueable later if it ever needs to come off.

The joint I have the most trouble with is the fingerboard, since it involves spreading a thin coat of glue over a large area, which cools very quickly. Probably just need to heat the parts more, but I may try the salt trick as well. Thanks for that, Ken.

If I can do it, anyone can! I also use the heat gun approach on purflings and bindings with HHG - works like a charm. Heat a little,glue and clamp a little, Heat a little, glue and clamp a little.

No one's mentioned the most attractive characteristic of hot hide glue: that wet dog smell! yum.

Hide works pretty easily after you overcome the initial fear and get some experience. I've been using fish for everything on my first few but later tried to use hide more: braces, linings, other ops that can be made fast.
Now I started with the bindings, something I thought it will be very hard for long. Fish is very easily taken apart with just water. Shellac is known to be destroyed by some players, and many old guitars have large bare wood areas in the body contact areas. I wouldn't want that the purfling glue lines are affected by sweat so I finally made the jump on my latest. I think the grab helped closing the strips in, if that makes sense. It simply felt better. I used hemp rope, it is way better than paper. You can actually clamp the thing not just pretend you do it. It doesn't break it doesn't skids on the massive glue squeezeout or protective shellac coats. It is faster. You get better access at cleaning the squeeze.
I still plan to use fish for the FB, bridge, and box closing. These areas don't have any moisture issues and the long time of fish makes it much easier.

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Build log

Creep occurs in acoustic guitars as seen by telegraphing seams in plates, binding, etc. This may take a few decades to show up, but it is inevitable with Titebond.

I would have to concur. IMSE badly treated pre-'65 Martins are in no better shape than post-'65. Conversely, well treated post-'65 ones are as OK as pre-'65 ones.
It is true that TB1 softens and starts creeping at lower temps than HHG, but that's mostly due to inattention, mostly hot trunks. As a matter of fact, without moisture the amount of dry heat needed to break a HHG bond will most likely char the wood.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

An extreme case of Titebond creep is only seen in highly stressed joints. I have a 35 year old hammered dulcimer that has some joints that have slid up to 1/16" without breaking loose.

That's a great tip. I wish I had thought of it!

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Getting back to the OP's original question...I stopped using HHG (or any other water-carrier glue) on the FB to neck joint. I had a nasty back bow probably due to water reacting with the mahogany that caused movement. Instead, I have since used quality epoxy (not the hardware store stuff) to make this joint. Also, I've separated such joints with heat without ever damaging the gluing surfaces.

As far as the other HHG issues already stated...I've used HHG for all of my guitars since day one and took the time to learn to use it without panic. The Mario Proulx video is a great tutorial to watch before jumping into the pool. Don't get scared off by all the hype.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

That's interesting, and you're not the first person to state that.
However I glue all my fretboards with HHG, and before that with either TB1 or Gorilla wood glue, both "water" based glues. I never had a fretboard back bow. The obvious is to use well seasoned timbers in a controlled RH shop.
Besides that I glue my fretboards unfretted with a dead flat heavy caul (2 layers of 3/4" ply) and well spread out clamps, and leave that to dry at least overnight.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I'm with Laurent on this, apart from the first couple where I used TB1, I have glued all of my fingerboards with either HHG or fish glue, again using a very heavy caul and plentiful clamps and letting it set up at least 12 hours. So far I've never had a neck move, I can't see how the amount of water in the very thin layer of glue in the joint can have any meaningful impact on the moisture content of a piece of wood the size of a neck, any water in the glue just could not penetrate more than a millimetre, if that. Just do the maths and see how much water is involved (my rough sums give me about 0.2cc of water over the entire FB area). If necks are bending, the answer as to why must lay somewhere else.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Laurent...I actually believe you may be on to something. This happened on my 1st guitar about 10 years ago. It was the only time I ever used a purchased neck and it may well have been unseasoned. Since then I have used only necks with wood seasoned in my shop and built by me. It's also possible that clamping over night wasn't long enough. As a result, I now leave my laminated neck glueups clamped for a minimum of 48 hours and all is well. I may try HHG on the FB glueup again one day with the longer clamp time...because... "I gots to know!"

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Warming the fretboard a bit before gluing allows sufficient open time for a regular glue-up with HHG, pretty relaxed in fact. The long clamping time is not necessarily for the water in the glue to evaporate IMHO, but rather for the two glued pieces (fretboard and neck stock) to adapt, by force it is true, to their new life together, so to speak.
Another issue I can think of is that a lot of ebony sold for fretboards is highly unstable, especially when flat-sawn or near flat-sawn. If the fretboard does not stay true, it must be discarded. It is also the case that most flat-sawn ebony, even if dead flat, when exposed to moisture (glue), invariably warps.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I sooooo want some of this!

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

I've been using hide for joining the plates, bracing, and bridgeplate and bridge. LMI white for the end blocks, fretboard (clamped against a flat caul for at least 24 hrs) and closing the box. Doubt that I'll change. Rick Turner's posts got me using epoxy for fretboards for a while but I didn't like it and went back to LMI and really have not seen any issues.

If you don't have a plate warmer you can lay your heating blanket out on the bench at around 150-200 degrees and put your parts on it before gluing. A toothbrush and hot water from your glue pot works pretty well for final cleanup after squeezeout removal followed by a wipe with paper towels and a shot with the heat gun for final drying.

Definitely glue the X one limb at a time.

I may be crazy but when I started putting hide in the fret slots when fretting I thought it made a positive impact on the sound.

John, is Martin including LMI white in the tonality study? I bet it's very close to hide.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

...plywood is probably not the best choice for something that needs to remain straight under force, especially the way i see it oriented in the foto...it is quite flexible. a chunk of cedar post would serve better for this application, IMHO

Laurent - Great idea...I'll try it next time. I love hide glue, but it definitely takes some prep work in terms of planning how to work quickly but precisely. Also requires finely fitted joints and mating surfaces. All good things, in my book.

One area where I have found hide glue does not work is if you are gluing veneer to a board in order to mill it into binding with an attached line. The glue just won't hold through the bending process. I find gorilla glue perfect for this task. Other than this, I find it an agreeable glue.

Any suggestions on a source for 300 gm strength glue?

Yeah, work really fast!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I wonder if you could use an iron too, like with veneers.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

I really don't understand the 'problem' people have in closing a box when using HHG. There are a few ways to achieve a relatively calm and stress free method. I glue size the edge of the Sides/Linings, position the Back on and use a warm clothes iron to reconstitute the glue. Works just fine. Take 1 hour over it if you really want to. In the past I used to feed the glue in a bit at a time using a spatula but it's much harder to control the squeeze out.

Here's another way.



You know if someone had asked me a few years ago if the glue made a difference in sound, I would have said that's absolute nonsense. Now, I'm not so sure anymore. My experimentation on electrics that are otherwise as identical as I can make them, changing only from set neck to bolt on, is making me question that. If no glue can make a difference, perhaps the kind of glue can make a difference too? I'm definitely open to the possibility.

I'm actually in the process of switching over to LMII's white and HHG, for various reasons. My understanding is the heat resistance of LMII and HHG is far superior to Titebond. The other reason is I just really prefer working with LMII's glue. It's just more pleasant to work with, IMHO. Nothing against Titebond at all.

Grumpy also has a youtube of gluing with HHG. It's a matter of practice, as I see it. Getting it down to a fast, but not rushed process. He also uses two passes with the glue. Second faster than the first.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Good video's. So they just hit the rim with glue and on with the top....... I've been putting glue on both sides

"Can I ask a stupid question ?"..................."Of course Rudy,.... I know you can."

L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.