Official Luthiers Forum!

John,
I know I don't know you and it's obvious that you don't know me. I wasn't listing my
achievements or accomplishments to boost anyone's perception of my abilities or the
quality of my guitars. I'm busy building and have a backlog of more than five years
that I'm chipping away at here in my shop.

You'll be OK and will recover nicely from this exchange. I'd be happy to compare guitars
with you any time and talk lutherie. I've always been about sharing anything that I know
or do openly with anyone who asks and have always been ready to contribute to the
guitar building community in any way possible for a lot of years. I have a lot of friends in
the industry and always encourage new builders and offer them anything that i can to
help them. I also have the highest respect for my peers in this business. Some of them
build guitars that knock my socks off while others build guitars that do little for me personally,
but knock their customers' socks off and that's what matters.

I also never said that I was one of the builders that the known criticizers should be bowing
before and gleaning knowledge from. You put those words in my mouth in that context. I
haven;t attended a trade show since 1997 and probably won't until my backlog is under
three years.

You read a lot more into my posts than was there, but it's clear that it's a pattern of behavior
for you. Feel free to contact me any time by PM or by email if you'd like. I hadn't been around
this forum for several months and you provided quite a welcome back.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I don't know...I like to hear others opinions. I don't know either of the gentlemen, but seems that both have some valid points.
I'm just amazed that the OP was only making a joke about his own errors and struck such a nerve because he mentioned a person's name and the word expert in the same sentence. He wasn't claiming that person to be an expert and it didn’t seem that the person making the statement was claiming that he was an expert either.
In any case, I’ve got some fret leveling to do while you experts sort things out.

I think its the sunday hangover coming out .
and I also hope for some of you all sake no customer reads this thread .
So now let me be the judge and jury and put the arguments to rest, you are all sentence to 2 month of cutting kerfed linings.

I wonder how this thread would have been treated if a well known builder would have been written it, and then would have been treated this way.
I do think this thread belongs to mr Chris ! ?? !! whom just made a simple watch over his own work !! like we all do in here !! ?? who among us does not was to become an expert in this ??
I do agree to kevins first reply, Allthough, It does not belong in this thread perhaps.

All your friend, Lars.

I have only built two guitars, yet my friends think I'm an expert. :-)

I agree that valid points have been made by John, Kevin, Howard, Todd, David--heck everyone involved. I follow or have followed several other guitar forums, but the level of experience, camaraderie and, yes, expertise found here are truly extraordinary--at least in my opinion. That's what brought me here in the first place and what keeps me coming back.

Kevin - I would just like to say that I am grateful for the help you have provided me over the past year. Am I then biased in your favor during this exchange? Perhaps. I'm trying not to be, but it is possible. I for one am very glad to see you participating here again and hope you will continue to do so with great frequency.

Welcome back! I wouldn't be an expert in my friends' eyes without you. :-)

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George :-)

Maybe there are 2 issues here. Guitar building, and woodworking. Obviously there are some 'great' builders here, who do outstanding work, Colin S is a great example of , matching the purfling ever so etc. I'd say thats expert, plus he makes great sounding lutes. Expert builder, expert woodworker. But do you have to be an expert to sell, to have a liveliyhood, to call yourself a luthier? Probably not. You have to start somewhere though...

and now its the end of the weekend...

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

As long as your dog thinks you are an expert I wouldn't sweat it.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

..Or a child of 3...

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

Sorry for the late response but I've been traveling.



Very true. I only have the words of your posts and the responses you gave me. I've tried to understand your words as best I could, and I certainly asked for clarification when I thought it would help. I've tried to respond in an accurate way to show what your words mean. I appreciate that responding this way can project a harsh tone, that really isn't my intent. I responded the way I did because it is the only way I know how to respond that focuses on the actual words you wrote and in a way not laden with personal feelings and projections.



Honestly, Kevin, What do you really expect me to think when you say something like this?



Again, this is the kind of comment you make that I feel is simply disrespectful to me. I'll say it again, you are in no position to judge my state of being. I have no need to recover from this post. Bad behavior on the part of others is not a reflection of my behavior. No matter how hard they try to make it so and no matter how many people help them.



Kevin, I will of course continue to read posts and pick up tips where I can, including yours, but considering the way we communicate in this thread, and especially since you have only stated contempt for the areas of guitar building that I am most interested in I don't expect it would be worth either of our time to work together. I don't mean to be rude about this, I'm simply saying that if you made up your mind, as you clearly stated about the value of using some techniques to study guitars then you are just not the right “teacher” for someone who has a very different point of view. I also feel that you responded to my posts in a disingenuous way,and frankly, my patience with that has reached its end.

I will say to any budding luthier who reads this, that I think that there is so much to learn in building guitars that it is extremely helpful to learn from an experienced luthier as much as you can. And anyone wanting to learn the craft is very fortunate if they can be guided by someone willing to teach what they know. However, I've also learned that there comes a time when it's important to “fly the nest”you need to decide for yourself what's important for you and your guitars and what is not. Studying with someone experienced is extremely beneficial but it also comes with a price, I know from my own experience of studying with someone that as you pick up all the good skills and techniques you are also picking up the biases and sometimes just plain misunderstanding and mistakes of the luthier too. At some point, and only you can decide when, it's helpful to pave your own path and free yourself from those biases and mistakes.

I will also say to any budding luthier, that sadly, in my experience, being able to build a great guitar is in no way a measure of the character of a man. While I've seen a lot of impressive behaviour demonstrated by some luthiers over the years, I've also seen a lot of behavior that I think is a poor role model. And so, while you're learning hard skills about the craft don't assume that you are learning hard skills about how to behave and treat others.



Kevin, I never said, that you said, that you were one of the builders that the known criticizer should be bowing before and gleaning knowledge from. It is you who are putting words in ,my mouth. Just to be clear, my remarks were addressed to “senior luthiers” in general, no one specifically.


I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that point. I think you original post was a “flame”. You described how this flame was lit yourself and how it was fueled by the frustration of others. I'll resist quoting you again but your words are there, go back and read them. And when I shined a bright light on your words, you choose to call into question my state of being, my calmness, how disturbed I was, suggesting I need some kind of recovery, all of which is just nonsense.

To others who have posted negative comments in this thread directed toward me I will say that I haven't seen any that I feel warrant a direct response. I'll just say this. I hold myself to high personal standards of behavior and I am also painfully aware of how often I fail to meet those standards. So, if you can point out specific words in my posts where I misspoke or made an error I will be more that happy to take the opportunity to be a good role model by owning my words, fixing my mistake, and then apologizing for the error.

John

At risk of sitting on the unpopular side of the playground, I think John's comments were warranted. He asked for clarification of some intentionally ambiguous statements, and that's fair. Asking questions and challenging unsupported assertions are not in any way grounds for attacking someone's character, I feel sorry for those who think those are bad things.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Given Kevin's later responses, John read the intent correctly. When someone's genuinely been misread, they just say that rather than dodging around the question. It's like answering 'do you think she's ugly' with 'she's got a great personality' instead of 'no'. I'm not saying I agree entirely with the language used, or assumptions made, by either. I don't think John's much more culpable for the tone of the exchange, I think he was just very direct in asking for a straight answer to his questions.

(PS: I have the utmost respect for both men, and wish we had more people letting their opinions out as Kevin has. I'm definitely not saying I've got sullied opinion of anyone here; text can make idle dinner conversation sound like a fight to the death, and so I try to never assume anyone's really that worked up. If this conversation had happened in person, we would all have forgotten about it within 20 minutes instead of talking about it five days later )

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Having read the entire thing again, I have to say its a classic case of unintentional enflaming, that hazzard of the digital word....

I can fully appreciate Kevin's gripe that there seems to be sniping at Shows etc, from those that consider themselves 'expert' who are maybe not... but here's the crunch; There are only two experts in any of this. You the builder will judge your OWN level of expertise based on your ambitions and experience - I think most of know that the more we learn with each build, the more we realise that there IS to learn...and instead of putting us off, it should inspire.

The second is the customer - they may irritate (I have been one of those) in their 'expertise', but I do believe most are intelligent enough to listen to advice - but it should be a relationship of trust and makers do need to be open to ideas and suggestions from customers - afterall, you would get different responses in some cases from different builders to tehe same question, so its perhaps understandable that some customers dont always take what the builder will say as 100% fact, but as opinion etc... My advice to customers is try and play as many instruments from as many makers as possible before deciding on who should build your instrument, because there will be one or two that suit your style the best - sure there are as I mentioned those supremely talented players who can make an Estaban ? (thankfully we dont have those in the UK, - but I have seen the commercials and I assume at that price they are ...not very good? - Why does Zorro sell guitars anyway? ) sound brilliant, yet for most mere mortals, there some that suit our style more than others and that should be recognised by builders - just because someone picks up your instrument - that is perfect in everyway and that you believe is the best you have ever made, and puts it down very quickly, does not mean they have no clue, just in most cases that it does not work for them... I have tried playing Fyldes many times, because everytime I hear Eric Bibb on his custom model, I want to get that sound but it never happens - I know I dont have the talent nor the style to get that from those superb instruments and thats why, but its an interesting concept. - So at shows, I can understand customers who might not find what they are looking for in all instruments - and if there are obvious visual flaws that dont need expertise to see, that is fair enough. But as Kevin pointed out, why the need for other makers to maybe criticise?

Criticism is all relative anyway - another great observation above was that 'I am an expert...according to my friends' this is indeed true, my friends and family believe my to be a genius in teh art ...after 2 guitars!

But its relative to their own knowledge, and in part because they are supportive I am sure... As a builder I dont believe I am in a position to offer constructive criticism to some makers - yet I woudl still as a customer advise Martin to sort out their bindings! Is that arogance? NO , Its just I have seen lost of instrument in that price range that do that bit better and sound just as good... opinion for sure. Can I criticise construction? yes, if its obvious such as glue? would i ? not if it sounds fantastic and plays well - that for me is my first criteria of evaluation and the one that wins over everytime... or is that simply and excuse for my own sloppy build technique

So gentlemen, I do think there are valid points from both sides, and no real need for any stress as it does seem its more a case of misinterpretation or unintentional flaming...

Nice! I'm not sure if I should be billing or paying

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I think this whole thread corresponds to my progression in life.

As I kid I found an ability to learn and grow
As a teenager I was an expert at life and no one could tell me any different
As a young adult I was ready to change the world and share my knowledge since I knew so much
As an mid adult I wondered why I ever thought I was so smart since nothing worked as easy as I thought it should.
As I enter Senior citizenship I'm thankful that I no longer try to correct the world because my view really wasn't the only correct one even though I thought it was....... Look what I found after all these years..... "an ability to learn and grow"

This thread is a good reminder to listen and learn and receive something from all sides and let the rest go...

Just my 2 cents worth...and this is coming from someone that thinks of himself as a total newbie at this!

I have built 8-12 different instruments (need to take a real count sometime) ranging from a hammered dulcimer to and upright bass. I have multiple friends and family that are blown away that someone they know can 'just throw together' an instrument in a few weeks. Do I consider myself an expert in any way, in any part of this? [bleep] No! There is so much else to learn, so many more new and interesting mistakes to make...just hope I have enough time!

My point here is that I make these in part for the enjoyment of the build, but also for others to enjoy (be it a sale or just letting them play it). When they are happy with the sound, the look or the feel (seldom do I get all three at once!)...well, that is when I feel that I have done something right.

My take on the 'expert' status...well...an expert to me is someone that knows enough, has the experience to use that knowledge and is willing/able to make mistakes and LEARN from them. Seldom is one who calls themselves an expert really one. I am fairly certain that Stradivarius (oh man...how bad did I trash his name?) thought of himself as an experience professional or a craftsman...but probably not an expert.

Anyway...just my bit o' input.

Oh...also...major props to anyone that can make mistakes, learn from them, have the blls to share it with others and even calm down enough (from first discovering the mistake) to take time to take pics of it! I'm usually lucky if I can think straight enough to exit the room/shop before exploding!


Keep up the efforts...you are doing great work!!!

-Matthew

Dennis, I think you have a handle on the flow of things.

I hear every so often from the established builders that the new builders should stop doing what they are doing, they are messing things up for everyone else.

Why must there be trouble in happy valley?

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

I checked the updates to the thread and I don't see anything that I feel I need to respond to so I thought I'll just reminisce about some of my Healdsburg experiences.

I was once looking at the guitars of a very famous builder, checking the action, looking at the fit, admiring it from different angles and lighting ,when the builder walked over to me, glanced at my badge, introduced himself and we began to talk. He was extremely friendly and very modest in the things he said and his approach to building. He shared a lot of information about himself and his experiences, especially since he was talking to a guy he just met at a show. He also invited me to “help myself” to his guitars.

As we were talking another builder walked over and they greeted each other it was obvious that they had met before and started to chat. Well in a matter of seconds the luthier that joined proceeded to put his foot in his mouth. I'm paraphrasing a bit but he told the much more famous luthier that both of their guitars were essentially equivalent and the fact that the famous luthier got so much more money for his didn't mean anything. At that point I was embarrassed for both of them and had no idea what to say. The famous luthier wasn't flustered at all, he didn't loose his cool, of course I have no way of knowing what he was thinking but my sense was he was a little embarrassed by the price he was getting for his guitars himself – not that he had any reason to be. He explained his pricing policy, why he changed it, I won't go into the details but only say, he had a very convincing reason for doing so. The conversation ended pretty much at that point, I was of course disappointed because there was just so much more I wanted to learn from him.

Afterward I had a chat with the not quite as famous luthier about what he said, I knew him well so it was easy to call him on what he said and suggest he might want to apologize for putting his foot in his mouth. He obviously didn't meant any harm and he obviously didn't fully realize the implication of his words. It was just one of those foot in mouth moments that we all make. And this particular luthier doesn't have many of those moments, he's an extremely kind, and thoughtful man who is generous with his time to all.

So, what's my point. What I got out of the experience by watching the famous luthier is that when someone comes up to you and criticizes your work or your- well whatever, in this case it was about if his guitars were really worth what people paid for them, you have a choice about how to react. You can be calm and handle it gracefully or you can get defensive and frustrated and do all kinds of less than graceful things. The frustrated luthers at recent shows and in forums also have a choice about how to react. I think the famous luthier was a golfer, maybe that taught him how to be so calm.

Since it's a bit relevant to the thread, I'll share one more moment I had with the famous luthier before the price incident. We were talking about guitars and sound and he was very humble about his approach to building guitars. He said he considered himself a cabinet maker. Now, keep in mind, that people who could have any instrument in the world play his so I'm thinking they must sound pretty good. So I asked him, “Do you ever make a bad sounding guitar.” He looked me in the eyes with this gentle smile, which said a lot all by itself, at least to me, and then simply said, words to the effect, “No, someone may like this one more than that one but then someone will like that one more than this one.” That right there, was the best lesson in guitar making I ever got.

Oh, maybe just one more story from my talk with the famous luthier. He was telling me about his building style and how he had to slow things down a bit because it was just getting too stressful. He described some colorful incidents which I'll resist going into, and he explained how some of the stress was due to the expectations of some of his customers. He talked about how they would schedule their vacations around a visit to his shop to pick up their instrument and then scrutinize every detail and be upset if there was even a small cats eye in the finish near the binding. They would tell him it was a crack and it had to be fixed. He would try to explain, it's not a crack .... I'm sure he tried to please everyone as best he could but after a while all this took a toll and he had to change how he did business. He did, I know he's still building great guitars, I hope he's enjoying life more now, and I hope he has more time to play golf.

John

Bravo! (NO sarcasm intended!)

Kevin, I just wanted voice my very humble opinion. Although I am only just finishing my very first guitar, I have been a proffessional cabinetmaker and furniture builder for 31 years. I echo your sentiment on the hot new upstarts. It's just an opinion. John is certainly entitled to his opinion as well. It is clear that he is having a reaction beyond just an opinion but oh, well.

A number of years ago I was back stage at a Doc Watson concert at a very small venue. I was talking with him and asking him about his guitar. His comment was, "Well this old guitar box, she rings like a bell" and he handed it over to me. It was one of yours. You are one of the greats. Not all luthiers at your level are willing to just hang out with people like us much less share your insights and secrets. I hope you will not stop. There are a lot of people who listen when you talk. Thanks

Wow! I thought I'd given up "soaps" a long time ago.

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**************
Tony Flippo

Sounds like Jim Olson. He once told me- "Every guitar sounds good--to someone."

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Please correct me if I'm wrong,but I believe Doc watson plays a Gallagher (the company) guitar ,not a Kevin Gallagher(the individual ).
They are two different entities.

Yes I was already corrected on this so I guess I have to confess to further lack of expertise. I must be well on my way to becoming a true expert given the sheer volume of mistakes I am capable of making.

Randolph,
I'd not seen your post about Doc Watson or I would have corrected it myself. This thread had become one that
was doing no one any good so I'd walked away. Someone sent me a PM about your post so I popped in to serve
you the courtesy of a public correction.

Don Gallagher is a friend of mine and I have the highest respect for him and his guitars, but we fall on two
distant ends of the guitar market. His are very traditional flatpicking guitars while mine are more modern designs
aimed a more contemporary fingerstyle and hybrid group of players.

Thanks,
Kevin Gallagher/OMEGA GUITARS