Official Luthiers Forum!

Frank,
You make the most important point of all in this he you say it really doesn't matter. Builders like
Ervin Somogyi have done best at allowing their guitars and the evolution of their tone as knowledge
increases speak for them an their abilities. It's the others who have literal decades of experience
behind them while their guitars still reflect the quality and skill of little more than a beginner that
I was referring to. There are plenty and they like say things like, "appearance and fit and finish just
don't matter....listen to my tone." or "I pay attention to what matters." to cover their lack of discipline
and commitment to improving the skill it takes to build a guitar with the small details that show the
level of care that our customer base has come to expect from a pro builder and in their respective
guitars.

It ends up just being about the offensive nature of these kinds of critique from unqualified
parties....and in a highly visible and public venue like a crowded guitar show floor that can cause
some discomfort and even embarrassment for those receiving them. Shows should be places where
the builders are able to support and encourage one another and admire one anothers' work. Let
those guys come around and wish their peers the best as they all take their places in an effort to
put the guitars infront of potential customers. My main issue with the whole thing is that the
criticism is offered less to help the builders receiving it and more to serve those giving it. This
is a great community that has been built around a craft and an industry and I like to encourage
the people in it and love to teach new builders how to build guitars and to build better guitars
all of the time. Too many nice people making incredibly beautiful guitars to be a critic.

Thanks




Haans,
Feel free to jump right over this part of the discussion and continue with something that suits
you. Any thread can take a detour at times. If a few folks get into a discussion that seems to stray
from the original topic.....it'll wander back and get on track again.

Relax...it's all about the guitars and the people that build them. We're still human and a subject
will raise different feelings and spark different ideas in all of us.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Thanks Kevin, I appreciate your points there.

I guess I still see myself as the customer first and foremost as my adventures in to building are still new and progress will be slow through choice as well as necessity - its a hobby that I love more each day, and thats fine with me.... I have to say that before I built my first two, as a customer in a shop, I have often been critical of certain things - there is a very strong argument that suggests if paying $0000s for an instrument, you want to see perfection in construction as well as great tone... so things like poor construction which are very visable do put you off ...but as I said above, if I can love an old beaten up Martin that is the same price, but has character and history, I sure as day can love a newish guitar that is a veritable tone monster... And it can be a dilemma though...does the sloppy technique mean the whole thing is sloppy and thus prone to weakness in construction v a perfectly made instrument from a highly skilled builder that lacks that certain something -albeit in my average playing hands? Can be a dilemma

On the matter of the 'show critique' - since building began on the first I have learned a thing or two about the difficulty of building to a 'perfect standard - I cant... it will take experience and skill, but like so many because of a good choice of material and guidance from a vastly experienced mentor I built a good guitar - close your eyes and its up there tonally with some high end stuff... but cosmetically ...well it did not seem to bother me at the time, but I have now entered that phase where its does and I wish I had kept that lovely Macassar set for when I had more experience... but hey it still sounds good- give it 20 years worth of dings and the cosmtic flaws will go unnoticed hey what about relic'ing? ;-0 only kidding... seriously I could now never criticise someones work in a negative way because I know how hard it is... its also a truth that comes with age... and with having played and heard so many guitars in different hands - the fact I can make a $8000 guitar sound like a box with string is sadly now acknowledged to be my limited playing talent - but there are guitars out there that suit my limited style

I think we need to be honest to the forum .There are many here that have built a few guitars. The builders of these may think they found something and want to share. Those of us the make a living at this have to be very careful how we dole out critique. I find it frustrating to read a post from someone I know to be an expert only to see it picked apart by someone that didn't get it.
We all have been there. It is an open forum so there posters will have a wide range of expertise. I like Ken was a train machinist with engineering background and have paid my dues. I agree that we learn from our mistakes so learn from others mistakes , you can;'t possibly make them all yourself.
I agree that as you gain experience you will learn that often what you think as iron clad truth in the end was often just a beginners luck opinion. That is what we learn as we take this to the highest level we can. Open eyes , Open Ears and sometimes don't say anything. I don't think anyone intended to be mean spirited but we do need to open minds
thanks

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

"Relax", "Take a deep breath" folks, rest assured I am as clam as calm can be.



It's impossible for me to respond to this in a fair and meaningful way without knowing specifics. It's not so important to know who these people are but, what exactly are they saying.



Well that's good to hear.



Again, it's hard to respond in a fair and meaningful way without knowing specifics. Just what "theories with formulas and equations" are you talking about?

It's my experience that many aspects of tone are fairly easily revealed in a very detailed way with the help of "impressive math". I don't think this is the thread to get into that discussion ,we could start another if you really want to go there.



You state that like it's a fact. A simple response, which doesn't convey by complete view but is close enough is: I don't believe what you say is true.



Again, enough detail to be titillating not enough to discuss in a meaningful way. Who are these builders who can back up their claims, "inquiring minds want to know ." Really, what are you talking about here. This is a public forum you're posting on, everyone does not have the same insider information.



Well then why didn't you just start your own thread to discuss this instead of mucking up Chris's thread? Really, why do a thing like that?



The last thing I want to do is defend the bad behaviour of inexperienced luthiers calling the babies of experienced luthiers ugly. But, I would respectuflly suggest that a vague post like yours in a forum is not a very good way to address this kind of issue. If you, and other luthiers are disturbed by what someone is doing, why not just confront them directly in a calm and reasoned way. I would recommend that you do so in a private converstation rather that a public forum.




This only reinforces my original interpretation of your comments about Cumpiano's guitars. In short, you're dissing him. You don't seem to be willing to come right out and say it but you certainly seem willing to strongly imply it.



Frank addressed this very well. I'll just add, guitar building is not a competitive sport like golf where there is a clearly defined objective.



I assure you, it takes a lot more than a post like your to ruffle my feathers, even a little bit. I think you're missunderstanding my response and my reason for responding in the first place.

I'll just add, we don't live in the middle ages, their are no guilds where I live, I for one am pleased with the progress that humanity has made- although there's alot more to do, I don't want to go back.

John

For me I generally look at the whole subject like this.

1) I am my own worst critic, I know precisely what is good and bad about the construction of my guitars. No matter how tight the build I always have 15 or 20 things that I think "need work". Either a better / more refined system of construction or skills that need to be honed. While the construction of my guitars are pretty tight now, I think 20 years of this running like your hair is on fire is what produces experts in the craft. You learn to see details in a totally new way.

2) Beyond my own paranoia there are a few people whose eyes I trust and who are familiar with my body of work (Ervin, Lance, Dave Collins, and a couple of others). I trust their opinions and seriously consider their feedback, either positive or negative. They all have "luthier's eyes and ears" and nothing gets past them. I find critisism given in the right way to be a gift. It becomes the fuel that we use to improve our work.

3) Tone. This is a complex beast. As I say I am ultra paranoid. Nothing is ever "good enough" in my book. But by going to shows I have noticed something that I find interesting. Two talented players can pick up the same guitar and play it. When I hear the first I say "this guitar sounds terrible, thin and tight and without much presence", and when the second one plays it I think "wow, that sounds rich and full with a lot of oomph." I think there is a chemistry between a player and an instrument and each compliment the assets of the other. When the fit is right everything just "works".

So, are there bad sounding guitars? Sure. But I find one player's opinion of the tone of an instrument rarely the last word on the subject.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

John,
You were obviously much more disturbed by my post than most other people here and it's clear that
I'll not be able to satisfy your concerns without specifics that are not going to be offered.

I don't think I mucked up the thread but only contributed what was on my mind and some thoughts
that it prompted in me.

There are very few builders who have used impressive math to reinforce or to prove their theories or
ideas effectively. I believe that the others who have tried and failed have done so without a real understanding
of the math being applied let alone the theories and ideas they were trying to prove with it. Where would we
be without math and all that it provides and proves so that we can understand and repeat important things
in life with real depth and accuracy.

As far as Bill Cumpiano goes....since my opinion of his guitars seems to be a very big concern for you.....
I think Bill is a wonderful writer and has provided some of the most valuable and useful resources for the modern
lutherie community. I've met him on a few occasions and doubt that he'd remember me or who I am, but he seemed
to be a pleasant person who was very generous and gracious with his time and experience. The way i view the
guitars built by him that I've seen has n bearing on the value of the information he has to offer other builders, but
it my opinion and I'm sure that of others who've seen and played them. Your best bet would be to play a few of is
guitars and allow that experience to feed your ability to come to an educated conclusion on that. Since we're
talking about guitars, guitar builders and all of the many facets of the craft of lutherie, the guitars are, in reality
the showcase for the knowledge and skill level of the builders.

I feel the same way about the guitars of a few other pioneers of modern lutherie. There's no need for me to
get specific on who they are, but just that they broke lots of ground for builders to create careers from and to
be inspired by.

In my career as a musician and as a teacher of music, I've had several students who came to me as excited
and energetic 5 to 8 year olds who had no idea how to even hold a guitar, but watched them work hard as
I taught them into and through their late teens and pass my abilities as they dedicated themselves to playing and
learning as much as they could about music, the guitar and how to apply one to the other. Several have a degree in
music now and have made a career out of it as well as going on to teach in a private format like I did with
them and even in the public schools. What a great feeling to know that, even though I'd studied hard and had
disciplined myself as I grew up as a player and got my degree in music, they were able to become more
technically proficient than I could dream of being and had taken the instrument farther then I had been able
to.

With the tools and resources available to new builders today, it's possible for a level of quality to be achieved
on the earliest guitars than was possible or common to guitars being built by much more experienced luthiers
a few decades ago.

I'm just taking part in a conversation here.....much like you are so my input isn't intended to muck up anyone's
thread or dismiss anyone else. Just offering my thoughts and opinions without a need to explain or to justify them
.....just like you. I understand that you're as calm as calm can be, but you need take posts for what they are, don't
read too much into them beyond what is actually there and allow us all the same space we'll allow you.

Anyone can become a member of ASIA or of GAL by paying an easy fee and getting a patch for their sleeve.
Does it buy them any credibility as a stringed instrument artisan or as a luthier? I know that there are no guilds
that require a certain amount of knowledge and skill to become a member or to be "certified" in our community
of guitar builders, but there are certain circles whose members seem to believe that their inclusion in them
makes them an expert or master of the trade. Funny, but true.

Like Brock, I've always been my own worst critic....looking closely at every detail of my builds. With nearly
500 guitars having come out of my shop with my hands being the only two to touch them, I've watched many
of what were regular trouble areas get much better and others make slow progress toward my goal end for
them. From bending to construction to finish and final set up steps and the quality that they lead to, I still
pay close attention to everything and do my best to improve over the last time I'd done it. Better each time is
the ultimate goal. It may never be perfect, but closer is good as time and the numbers of guitars go by. I've had
critique offered by other experienced builders and always appreciate it as long as I know that they actually know
what they're talking about. There are a few that I will readily offer that type of critique, but only to kelp them
because I know that their goal is to grow as a craftsman and to offer the very best product possible in their
guitars.

Thanks,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Ahhh, weekend!

_________________
Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

I haven't played ANY of the guitars in question,and I'm too tired to read all these posts. But I have been building for 54 years,and I certainly see where Gallagher is coming from with the novices thinking they are as accomplished as long time professionals. I've just been dealing with one such guy elsewhere. It is a real PITA to put up with those types,and that is the truth. Some guys in these times seems to think he is an expert,even if he's NEVER actually made an instrument. They have such huge egos that they can't even see how bad their own work is,and how bad it sounds. It really is a downside to being a builder,dealing with these types.

Good idea, think I'll join ya...

I saw no "hornet's nest" here except a few people getting bent out of shape about one man's very well articulated and honest post. Kevin is a rare treasure on this board, always willing to lend his expertise and do so extremely honestly yet tactfully. We need a few more like that but, sadly, it seems the ones who have passed our halls have been run out of town, so to speak, by a handful of folks who don't like their honesty. If you don't like theirs, you probably won't like mine either. Hmmm...kinda funny, too...seems like history has shown it's almost always those with very few (or even zero) builds under their belt who raise the biggest stink. Interesting "coincidence", huh? I recognize that a couple of veterans have spoken up here, but the rule still generally holds true.

Thank you, Kevin, and others like yourself who take the time out of your schedule to hang out with us and share your wisdom. Rest assured most of us appreciate it, so please don't give up. Thanks for sticking around when others have gone.

People really need to quit looking so hard for something to be offended by. As long as you're looking, you're guaranteed to find something. This whole mentality has really gotten tiring for me....

_________________
Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Kevin,

Since you don't know me, and as far as I know we have never had any other communication other than these few posts I find it disrespectful for you to keep commenting on my state of being. Please stop doing it.




It's hard to respond to vague statements like this. Could you please try to be a bit clearer and more specific about exactly what math you are talking about.

As far as :


Maybe so but so what? Surely you understand that the history of science often shows the failures of some followed by spectacular success of others. Really, Kevin, what is your point. Exactly what math do you have an issue with and why?

I read a quote of Mark Twain's recently, it's out of context by seems appropriate here. It certainly reflects how I feel about using science to understand guitar sounds and guitars in general.



Then you say:


Well, to me at least, that makes it perfectly clear that you don't think highly of Cumpiano's guitars and have, for whatever reason, chosen to make that known in a public forum with a world wide audience. If I have somehow misunderstood this then it's because you have, for whatever reason, chosen to feed my misunderstanding and not for a more than reasonable effort on my part to get to the bottom of what you were trying to say.



I stand by my my interpretation of you post, Kevin. I tried my best to point out what was clear and unclear. Much of what you wrote was veiled in inuendo, and given how you responded to my requests for clarification, I believe that was deliberate, if you want to hang your hat on that, well that's your choice. You won't however, be telling me what “I need to take posts for”.

I appreciate that it might be puzzling why I would dig so deeply into this. My motivation is simple, I believe it's important for senior luthiers to not only model building good guitars but also model good behavior among the community. If you don't want people to disparage other folks guitars, then don't disparage them yourself- in a veiled way or not. If you want a community filled with respect for all, then give respect and don't expect:


If you think


Then perhaps you shouldn't be tooting your own horn and listing your accomplishments.

I think modeling good behavior is the only option for improving things, the guilds are gone, we live in a free society, anyone can say what they want. But we can set a good example by what we say, and then hope for the best.

At least, that's how I see it.

John

Agreed. Give it a rest, you and you alone are dragging this silly thing out, John. Whatever your agenda is, how about taking it elsewhere or in private, please.

_________________
Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I've been in the shop FP'ing all day, come in and read this!
I'm sending everyone to bed, but only after a nice supper.
love,
Dave.

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Hey, I have a question: Is there some rule here that you can't say someone's guitars don't sound very good? That is not an ad hominem attack, although the distinction is usually lost on an internet forum. If someone whose building patterns are likely to be copied by a lot of people doesn't make good-sounding guitars (I have never seen, heard, or played a guitar by Bill Cumpiano), isn't that useful information?

I learned years ago that any criticism of anything in a public forum is likely to be met with flames; more so if it is a criticism of anyone's work product, no matter how qualified. So I keep such opinions to myself, and admire the courage of those willing to say what they think.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

As much as everyone would want to believe that guitar building is not a competition, in reality competitive people turn everything they do into a competition. I think the very best guitars are probably made by the very most competitive craftsmen, at least the ones that I have known.

Add into that mix the ugly side of the human spirit, and someone cuts down the competition, in order to raise their own stock. It is going to happen. I don't like the ugly side any more than you do, but it is in us all, I believe.

Every guitar that I look at, a part of me wants mine to be better than theirs, if not in finish, than tone, or playability, and I rate myself as a big, old uncompetitive hippie, spreading the love all around.

I used to work for a guy who told me "never cut down your competition, it will only make your customer curious about them, the next thing you know, they'll be over there, trying them out."

The solution to all this? Go build another guitar. That really isn't the answer, but I can't talk about religion or politics here.

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Expert? An "Ex" ain't nothin' but a has been. And a "Spurt" ain't nothin' but a big drip under pressure. And why would you want to be one of those?

You're doing the right thing there. What you are gaining is experience. Experience is that thing that teaches you to recognize your mistakes when you make them again.

Been there, still doing it.

Glen

John,
I know I don't know you and it's obvious that you don't know me. I wasn't listing my
achievements or accomplishments to boost anyone's perception of my abilities or the
quality of my guitars. I'm busy building and have a backlog of more than five years
that I'm chipping away at here in my shop.

You'll be OK and will recover nicely from this exchange. I'd be happy to compare guitars
with you any time and talk lutherie. I've always been about sharing anything that I know
or do openly with anyone who asks and have always been ready to contribute to the
guitar building community in any way possible for a lot of years. I have a lot of friends in
the industry and always encourage new builders and offer them anything that i can to
help them. I also have the highest respect for my peers in this business. Some of them
build guitars that knock my socks off while others build guitars that do little for me personally,
but knock their customers' socks off and that's what matters.

I also never said that I was one of the builders that the known criticizers should be bowing
before and gleaning knowledge from. You put those words in my mouth in that context. I
haven;t attended a trade show since 1997 and probably won't until my backlog is under
three years.

You read a lot more into my posts than was there, but it's clear that it's a pattern of behavior
for you. Feel free to contact me any time by PM or by email if you'd like. I hadn't been around
this forum for several months and you provided quite a welcome back.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I don't know...I like to hear others opinions. I don't know either of the gentlemen, but seems that both have some valid points.
I'm just amazed that the OP was only making a joke about his own errors and struck such a nerve because he mentioned a person's name and the word expert in the same sentence. He wasn't claiming that person to be an expert and it didn’t seem that the person making the statement was claiming that he was an expert either.
In any case, I’ve got some fret leveling to do while you experts sort things out.

I think its the sunday hangover coming out .
and I also hope for some of you all sake no customer reads this thread .
So now let me be the judge and jury and put the arguments to rest, you are all sentence to 2 month of cutting kerfed linings.

I wonder how this thread would have been treated if a well known builder would have been written it, and then would have been treated this way.
I do think this thread belongs to mr Chris ! ?? !! whom just made a simple watch over his own work !! like we all do in here !! ?? who among us does not was to become an expert in this ??
I do agree to kevins first reply, Allthough, It does not belong in this thread perhaps.

All your friend, Lars.

I have only built two guitars, yet my friends think I'm an expert. :-)

I agree that valid points have been made by John, Kevin, Howard, Todd, David--heck everyone involved. I follow or have followed several other guitar forums, but the level of experience, camaraderie and, yes, expertise found here are truly extraordinary--at least in my opinion. That's what brought me here in the first place and what keeps me coming back.

Kevin - I would just like to say that I am grateful for the help you have provided me over the past year. Am I then biased in your favor during this exchange? Perhaps. I'm trying not to be, but it is possible. I for one am very glad to see you participating here again and hope you will continue to do so with great frequency.

Welcome back! I wouldn't be an expert in my friends' eyes without you. :-)

_________________
George :-)

Maybe there are 2 issues here. Guitar building, and woodworking. Obviously there are some 'great' builders here, who do outstanding work, Colin S is a great example of , matching the purfling ever so etc. I'd say thats expert, plus he makes great sounding lutes. Expert builder, expert woodworker. But do you have to be an expert to sell, to have a liveliyhood, to call yourself a luthier? Probably not. You have to start somewhere though...

and now its the end of the weekend...

_________________
Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

As long as your dog thinks you are an expert I wouldn't sweat it.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

..Or a child of 3...

_________________
Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

Sorry for the late response but I've been traveling.



Very true. I only have the words of your posts and the responses you gave me. I've tried to understand your words as best I could, and I certainly asked for clarification when I thought it would help. I've tried to respond in an accurate way to show what your words mean. I appreciate that responding this way can project a harsh tone, that really isn't my intent. I responded the way I did because it is the only way I know how to respond that focuses on the actual words you wrote and in a way not laden with personal feelings and projections.



Honestly, Kevin, What do you really expect me to think when you say something like this?



Again, this is the kind of comment you make that I feel is simply disrespectful to me. I'll say it again, you are in no position to judge my state of being. I have no need to recover from this post. Bad behavior on the part of others is not a reflection of my behavior. No matter how hard they try to make it so and no matter how many people help them.



Kevin, I will of course continue to read posts and pick up tips where I can, including yours, but considering the way we communicate in this thread, and especially since you have only stated contempt for the areas of guitar building that I am most interested in I don't expect it would be worth either of our time to work together. I don't mean to be rude about this, I'm simply saying that if you made up your mind, as you clearly stated about the value of using some techniques to study guitars then you are just not the right “teacher” for someone who has a very different point of view. I also feel that you responded to my posts in a disingenuous way,and frankly, my patience with that has reached its end.

I will say to any budding luthier who reads this, that I think that there is so much to learn in building guitars that it is extremely helpful to learn from an experienced luthier as much as you can. And anyone wanting to learn the craft is very fortunate if they can be guided by someone willing to teach what they know. However, I've also learned that there comes a time when it's important to “fly the nest”you need to decide for yourself what's important for you and your guitars and what is not. Studying with someone experienced is extremely beneficial but it also comes with a price, I know from my own experience of studying with someone that as you pick up all the good skills and techniques you are also picking up the biases and sometimes just plain misunderstanding and mistakes of the luthier too. At some point, and only you can decide when, it's helpful to pave your own path and free yourself from those biases and mistakes.

I will also say to any budding luthier, that sadly, in my experience, being able to build a great guitar is in no way a measure of the character of a man. While I've seen a lot of impressive behaviour demonstrated by some luthiers over the years, I've also seen a lot of behavior that I think is a poor role model. And so, while you're learning hard skills about the craft don't assume that you are learning hard skills about how to behave and treat others.



Kevin, I never said, that you said, that you were one of the builders that the known criticizer should be bowing before and gleaning knowledge from. It is you who are putting words in ,my mouth. Just to be clear, my remarks were addressed to “senior luthiers” in general, no one specifically.


I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that point. I think you original post was a “flame”. You described how this flame was lit yourself and how it was fueled by the frustration of others. I'll resist quoting you again but your words are there, go back and read them. And when I shined a bright light on your words, you choose to call into question my state of being, my calmness, how disturbed I was, suggesting I need some kind of recovery, all of which is just nonsense.

To others who have posted negative comments in this thread directed toward me I will say that I haven't seen any that I feel warrant a direct response. I'll just say this. I hold myself to high personal standards of behavior and I am also painfully aware of how often I fail to meet those standards. So, if you can point out specific words in my posts where I misspoke or made an error I will be more that happy to take the opportunity to be a good role model by owning my words, fixing my mistake, and then apologizing for the error.

John

At risk of sitting on the unpopular side of the playground, I think John's comments were warranted. He asked for clarification of some intentionally ambiguous statements, and that's fair. Asking questions and challenging unsupported assertions are not in any way grounds for attacking someone's character, I feel sorry for those who think those are bad things.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services