Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks Michael, That must be what Dan had on his glue and I thought it was the end of a pipette. Although I cut the tip off a pipette and it worked. There is one at the link that comes with an extra length of tubing that I can see coming in handy for some repair work possibly.

slip of the tounge there! lol

you get what i mean though? pva on top ca on back or something similar....

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"Anything that happens, happens. Anything that in happening causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Anything that in happening happens again, happens again. Though not necessarily in that order." Douglas Adams

I just used CA on an OM w/cutaway, first time not using white PVA. I liked being able to stick the purflings
before I did the binding, especially in the tight cutaway bends. I also liked the ability to adhere short
sections of the binding at a time- especially in the cutaway, where I had problems getting the highly
figured flame maple to bend without kinks. I don't think I got quite as tight a fit as I'm used to getting
with the PVA wrapped with 20 yds of elastic binding tape, but that may be technique that I'll pick up
as I go. I also had cut the binding ledges slightly oversize to account for glue line, which I see isn't
wanted with CA. Oh well, I'll just sand a little more on the sides, won't be a problem for the small amount
I added. Overall, I'm pretty satisfied, I'll use CA on the next couple of builds...

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Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

Michael, I get mine from Tower as well. Love the things. Cheap and very controllable. Tower is also a good source for epoxy, self stick sand paper to stick on your sanding bars, and CA.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

YEP. I have been an avid RC aircraft moderler since about 1978 I guess Tower has probably over $4K or 5k of my hard eared money of the years I was really into large scale 1/4 scale to 1/3 scale for many years but I don't have the time any more to fly my biggies much. I resently have built about 10 electric park flyers 35"-45" wingspaners that I can take to my local city park and fly at the drop of a hat.

I actuall don't buy my capillary tubes through Tower. I get mine through my local RC club. Our club buys in bluck and sells to the members at cost+5%

Michael,

Yeah, Tower has a bunch of my mula as well. I've been pretty active in R/C for years. I have a few 1/5 scale aircraft, but never got into 1/3 scale. Had desires to but not the time. Like you, most of my flying now seems to be small electrics on LIPOs. I live on a lake and fly most of the time off water (or snow depending on season). It is just so convenient and no mess to clean up. I have some gorgeous nitro powered a/c that just sit around now--at least they are not getting rekitted!

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Hello All,

Interesting topic! Kind of ironic too, cause I just routed out the channels for purfling and binding,
on a OM cutaway, and was hoping I would find some new info. on installing them here at the OLF!

I understand most of what has been discussed, but, I’m having trouble with a couple of steps. If
anyone would care to elaborate a little further, I sure would appreciate it.

Here’s my take on it so far. First you seal the top and back, then rout out the channels, then seal
the channels, then pre-bend your purflings and bindings to fit, then tape them in place with all
your joints fitting tight including the miter cuts, then “Wick” in the CA. Then remove the tape,
and wick in more CA where you missed under the tape.

OK! I don’t quite get the term “Wick”, and I’m trying to understand how the CA makes it’s way
down between the binding and the wall of the channel if the binding is taped to the channel so
tightly?

Also, in my case, I have an additional problem to deal with. On this guitar I used for the first time
a dremel attachment I got from StewMac. It appears I will need much practice to master this tool.
I over cut the channel for the purfling as much as .040" to deep in a few areas on the top and back.
I read where Burton “sands the binding tops and pushes the dust over the purfs” “Then goes
around again with a very light squirt of CA” Not sure if this would work in my case. So, any
advise on this issue would also be appreciated.

Thanks, Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

Wicking is a term used for the capulary effect that will draw the CA into the joint like fliud being drawn into a wick in an alcohol lamp or spilt water being absorbed by a towel. Watch this video and it may be of some help too you also:
viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=20493
The top or soft spruce channel should be sealed at the end grain as some and probably most Water thin CA which you will be using will discolor or yellow the spruce top by the glue getting wicked into the end grain of the soft wood tops. It's not usually a problem with hard woods but can't hurt to seal. The thin CA will wick into the joint as you can't get it that tight or water tight.
If your top purfs are too deep you could fill with dust and install the purfs and glue it all at once or you could shim or fill the channel with .040" wood purfs as a filler or use it to laminate to the bottom of you top purf. If you channel is only deep in certain places you could just fix those sections. There are a couple of ways to skin the cat. More info would help with deciding on the choice of the fix.

RobertD, you pretty much understand it, and Chris has you cleared up on the 'wicking' thing. I just want to point out that .04" is a pretty big gap. If you have a lot of gaps that large, you may want to consider finding another perfling you like that would fill the gap and reroute the top. Of course if you don't have your tool mastered, you could end up with the same problem. I use BWB perflings that are .03", and you could get some bw that are .04".

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Are you talking about a gap or the channel being too deep? I was thinking you ment too deep. If a gap then what Ken said.

Robert,

I agree with Ken, .04 is a large gap. The gaps I meant when I talked about sanding the binding dust down are really small, mostly pinhole type openings and they would be filling between the purfling and binding, not the top and the purfling. I used the dremel with the Stew Mac attachment on my first few and never achieved a very consistent cut. I am sure it is possible but the difference between a lam trimmer and the dremel is huge. Also, if you do it over with the dremel it helps a ton to sneak up on the depth. On your last cut try to take .02 or less. It is much easier to get a good result with the dremel if it is not being overloaded.

As for this guitar adding more purfling will work if you can even out the channels all around. If not it is very possible to use the offcuts from your top and fill those gaps (fill them proud and then re cut) although this is very finicky work it can be rewarding. Good luck either way.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Hey Chris, thanks for the clarification on “Wicking”. The alcohol lamp comparison was perfect.
I must say, that I’m surprised that it works as well, as you say. But, I’m definitely going to give it
a try. Also, thanks for the link to your tutorial. I watched several of them, and will be watching
them again. As far as, deciding on a choice of fix. Well, I’m still up in the air on that one.
Another question, if you don’t mind? Does “water thin CA” have a specific name, so I know
were to buy it?

Hey Ken, Your point is well taken. And, it’s a little embarrassing to admit. But, the first attempt
to rout with my new dremel attachment, was the second attempt to rout the purfling channel
deeper. My original choice was black/white at .040". I didn’t think that would look right, so, I
ordered some b/w/b at .060", and proceeded to break out the new tool to make the adjustment.
I’ve been working with power tools for 35 years, and I thought I had a pretty steady hand, but, I
didn’t do so well on this guitar. I did try it out on a scrap piece of wood, and it worked perfect.
Still not sure exactly what I did wrong, but, I’ll figure it out. The gaps in question are about 5%
to 10% of the total area for the back and front. I suppose I could try to rout a third time. I already
have the b/w at .040". I could add that to the b/w/b and end up with b/w/b/w/b. I’ve never seen
that before, and I guess that would look OK. I’m just a little nervous about trying it again.

Hey Burton, sorry for quoting you out of context. My total cut for binding and purfling was
supposed to be .140". However, I ended up with .180" in a few places. The only reason I bought
the dremel attachment, was because I new I had to free hand a cut around the cutaway of the
body. I just really thought it would work better then it did. And, as you say, I could try to rout
again, I’m just not real confident in my abilities, with this new tool.

I do have an idea, that if I install the binding, then make a jig incorporating a sharp blade, that
would ride the inside of the binding after its glued as a guide. Perhaps, I could cut the channel for
the purfling to the exact depth desired. Of course, I’m open to other ideas too!

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

Hot Stuff makes thin , med. and thick and the little tubes of super glue are usually thin. StewMac also sales all three types.
You could always put some herringbone, rope or shell purfling on it. I think Mike Doolin uses 5 lines on his tops. If you have the time you could make a binding machine for your dremel and better yet for a laminate router if you have one.

RobertD, I am not the most experienced guy on the forum, but I wonder about a couple of things. I am not familiar with the SM dremel setup. Does it ride on a bearing around the rim? If so, are your rims perfectly square to the top? Tilting the tool can cause all sorts of grief as well. I have a couple of Dremel's, and they have much more runout than my routers, but that can't explain .04"! You could post under a new thread and may get some feedback from folks that have used a similar setup.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

I used this type on my first guitar which is the reso in my avatar.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... Guide.html
And I have ablam top purfling and also have 1/8" gold side purfling. I have to say it is a bit tricky but I got it done. It takes several passes to finish one channel and then several passes to make sure the channel is even all the way around because it has the side bearing. I still have it somewhere as you never know when it might be the tool you need to do something special. But I wouldn't do another guitar with it as it was enough of a learning experiance. Faster then by hand with chisels. Being that the bit diameter is larger then the bearing dia. you have to be sure you keep the bearing and bit at the tangent point or you could dig into the side and make those big gaps. And if you go the wrong way it could get away from you and dig in. It's pretty nerve racking actually. I'm even a bit surprized that I pulled it off and pretty prould I pulled it off.

Randolph asked about the oily woods like Cocobolo?

Anyone going to address that? Lord knows I don't know the answer but would like to know.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Ken, you’re probably right, in that I tilted the dremel slightly. I’m thinking now that the tool has
to small a base, which makes it very difficult to hold it stable.

Chris, thanks for the info. on water thin CA. I’m glad to hear someone has done 5 lines before.
The only problem with that, is my rosette is Pau Ferro with b/w on the inside and outside of the
rosette. I suppose that a 5 line purfling would still good.

As for the dremel attachment, this was a re-rout, and the dremel only needed to cut an extra .020"
in the top and back. I figured it would be a breeze. Of course, I figured wrong. The original
routing was done using a jig I made for my router table. It works just fine for a dread, but, not so
well for a cutaway. Wether I like it or not, I will have to re-rout, or do it by hand. If by hand, I
could install the bindings, and make a jig incorporating a sharp blade, where the jig could ride the
inside of the bindings as a guide. I’m sure that will work, but, its time consuming. I’d be more
than happy to use my router, but, I’ve had trouble in the past finding a bit/bearing combo that will
do the exact depth one desires.

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

LMI has a cutter and bearings in .010" increments.
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproduc ... earing+Kit
Or you could make your own side bearing or guide.
http://www.doolinguitars.com/articles/bindrout/
And there is a side bearing for the colt too.
You're not the first to walk this road.
Why do you think we all have binding machines?

I've never used it but even when gluing ebony I will wipe it with Acetone and I would think if you have an oily wood that that would be a good idea before gluing it with any glue. You should also scrape or lightly sand the joint to be glued if the wood has been sitting a while as the oxidation of the wood will keep it from being a good strong joint. I think if the joint has been sitting for more then a week it's a good idea to freshen it up before gluing and may even be a few days.

I just did some of the oiliest cocobolo bindings I have with the CA and had no problems. I have glued up a lot of coco with CA for little projects and never had a problem like I have with other glues. It could happen of course, it just hasn't yet for me.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Good to know. Thanks Burton (are you wiping with acetone first?) Thanks Chris, I agree it's bound to help and can't hurt.

I didn't wipe with acetone but I do scrape any scorching off. When I think of it I lightly scrape the whole gluing surface with a razor blade or card scraper before gluing. I don't always remember. Most of the failures I had with other glues occured where there was some scorching on the wood from bending.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Also good to know. Thanks