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Don't know if it's the particular top I received or characteristic of engelmann but two things; softest spruce I've worked with and highly toxic to me. I swear you look at this stuff wrong and it scratches. My sinuses swell up and skin breaks out in a rash. Be glad when the finish is done and hope it sounds good. Beautiful straight grain. Will try to post pic with phone. Anyone else have similar experience?

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Just a box with strings https://www.facebook.com/wadesguitarshoporcas

I've never used it but that's a nice looking top.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I've built 17 instruments using Engelmann Spruce purchased from Simeon Chambers of Colorado, both archtop and flattop designs. I also use Englemann for my braces, even with Sitka Spruce fronts. Many of my builds have used local (South Carolina, Georgia) Black Walnut.

The Engelmann was supplied as split and sawn wedges for archtops, and I resawed quite a bit of it to produce flattop plates. So, I've handled, carved, scraped and sanded quite a bit of it.

The Engelmann I have has a wide spectrum in terms of grain count and appearance. Some is creamy white and tight grained, and other wedges have the darker winter grain appearance like your photo. The hardness varies some also (assessed using crude fingernail tests, and how easy trash on the bench can cause a dent .

The handling and dust has not caused me, or anyone in my shop, any issues. I do make use of a shopvac for most of my cleanup and dust collection and recently added a Grizzly dust collector to get better performance out of my thickness sander, and especially since I recently started using East Indian Rosewood. I can imagine your frustration, and working in long sleeves and dust masks could get tedious.

I do have one former co-worker that was allergic to walnut and other nut woods like pecan. Is there a chance that's a factor?

Janka hardness is a common method to compare resistance to denting in timbers. Janka side hardness is a direct measurement of the force needed to bury a .444" diameter steel ball to 50% depth into the face of a wood sample, so most flooring materials include their Janka side hardness value in advertising lit. By way of comparison, Janka side hardness for paulownia - a very soft hardwood - is about 80 lbs for the lowest density samples, while Gabon ebony is two orders of magnitude harder at 3,080 lbs.

WRC is about 350 lbs, while Engelmann is just a bit higher at 390 lbs. Sitka, Red, and while spruces are all significantly harder than Engleman at 510, 490, and 480 lbs , respectively.

So in a nutshell, Englemann should be handled as we do WRC, while other spruces tend to be a bit more forgiving.

On allergies, I suspect that a trip to the appropriate provider will be needed to determine the nature of the reaction. Spruce dust tends to be quite benign for me, while ebony dust is akin to breathing in finely ground, fresh black pepper.

I've had a similar reaction to Woodie's with some pieces of Macassar ebony, but not others. I had one student who was extremely sensitive to Morado/ Pau Ferro, but only one. My violin making teacher developed allergies to both spruce and maple over time. You could chalk that up to age and years of exposure. She liked to work on the porch of her summer 'camp' overlooking a lake, where the wind took all the dust away. Tropical trees employ various sorts of 'chemical warfare' to battle the host of things that are trying to eat them, but that's not as common in softwoods. WRC and redwood are, I believe, known to be somewhat toxic, and yew certainly is, but I haven't heard that was common with any of the spruces.

I have to wonder if there might be something to do with the supplier or the way the wood was handled? If a fungus started to grow in the wood after it was cut that could introduce toxins that would be spread as it was milled, for example. I've never had those problems with Engelmann.

I've only built one with engelmann, and don't remember it being particularly delicate. But I mostly use redwood, so it probably just seemed normal.

I react more to spruce than any other wood, due to having had pet rodents as a child. Apparently the wood chip bedding we used was spruce, and I inhaled a bit too much dust while cleaning the enclosures But it mostly just gives me a viscous runny nose, and a dust mask prevents it. I always wear a mask during thicknessing (hand planes produce a fair amount of fine dust along with the chips) or other dusty tasks, regardless of wood species.

This is interesting!

Like Alan, I've also had a "black pepper" type reaction from Macassar Ebony fretboards. I've tried to be careful with Ebony(s) and East Indian Rosewood, and keep the dust collection going especially when sanding. This thread is a good reminder to stay disciplined with dust collection.

I used to have issues with spruce in general. I’d walk into my shop and instantly I’d get a runny nose and hot itchy skin. Even with a good DC setup there is still the ultra fine particles that hang about like a vapour. I bought a home hardware type HEPA air purifier for the shop and my troubles went away, I run it 24/7…

I’ve built many with Engelmann tops. Few were unscarred by my handling. I’ve never reacted to the spruces, but Spanish Cedar sets off the runny nose and coughing just by being in the room. EIR goes to an asthma-like coughing quickly. So, I don’t use Spanish Cedar for linings and when I carve a neck with it, I’m very careful about my exposure. I try not to keep it in my shop. I can use EIR if I mask and control the dust. I change my clothes after working with it. I have a HEPA filter on my dust collector and two air cleaners with HEPA filters.

Dang it! Just thinking about Spanish Cedar makes my nose run.

I do think I have a particular allergy to this wood. Have not had that reaction to sitka. I bought 2 AA pieces a couple years ago, that may explain the softness although they look nice. I'm on my 3rd build and I purposely purchased inexpensive wood as a new builder. I since gathered better woods. My first build came out so nice, I won't waist time with inferior materials. I do like some flaws in my woods (by flaws I mean small knots or character, not build quality). Appearance, sound quality and workability are the important things to me. We'll see how this thing sounds with cherry B/S. Dust mask and washing hands has helped. Thanks for all the replies, much appreciated. I have a bunch of redwood including a couple of billets to resaw, I'd better take precautions.

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Just a box with strings https://www.facebook.com/wadesguitarshoporcas

Something I can offer to folks wanting the lightness attribute of engleman, but without the extreme softness and in your case toxicity, is our Ultra Light old growth sitka.
If you can work with sitka. This stuff that I have quite rare.
We produce 25,000 acoustic gtr tops per year. That has been quite consistent for near 15 yrs. I have only come across a handfull of sticks that yeild this very light weight. light density boards. So to put this in perspective 25K x 15 yrs[ when I came across the first light log and it was brought to my attention by Greg Maxwell-dogwood Guitars. That 325,000 tops. I have only inventoried about 2000 in these 15 yrs.. I just come across another log, a float log that brings current inventory of the UL sorts to about 1000 between the 4 grades A-Master.
3 or 4 of the few logs have been float log. And It makes me wonder if the saltwater hashad a "drawing effect" to the wood fiber. Drawing some elements of sugars or something from the fiber. these float logs had been in the salt water for several decades. as many as 50 yrs.
but theres been some land salvage logs/trees too. White spruce doesn't grow here, it's tooo wet. Only sitka grows here as everywhere is within 50 miles of the coast. So with this sort, you get the hardnes and the toughness of sitka, but the lightness of red cedar or engleman. Of course theres variances in both red cedar and engleman as far as weight is concerned. I've only had a small amount of engleman, that came to me by way of bass fronts that I bought from a violin shop in Seattle about 28 yrs ago.
But I have gone through a lot of red Cedar and some has been quite a bit heavier than others., but all lighter than standard density old growth sitka.
Per the picture of your project, that board would be in our A grade Nonfigured dreadnaught sort- ultra-light variation of that product listing.

All soft woods share a similar structure. I've tested the mechanical properties of a lot of tops of several softwood species; not just the 'usual suspects'. In all cases, when you plot the Young's modulus along the grain as a function of density, they tend to fall on the same line, with about 60% of samples being within 10% +/- . That's not bad for natural materials of ten or more different species. The main things that produce variation are the relative proportion of early wood to late wood, and run out. Hard late wood ads stiffness, but it adds weight faster, so a sample with heavy latewood lines will be less stiff than it 'should' be at the given density. Run out reduces long-grain stiffness. Long-grain Young's modulus is the main determinant of stiffness at a given thickness.

Any species shows a lot of variation in density: I've had Engelmann tops that were as dense, and as stiff along the grain, as any Red ('Adirondack') spruce. There's a lot of overlap: I have a WRC top in my stash that matches a Red spruce top exactly for both long-grain and cross grain stiffness: both are outliers from the species average to some degree, of course. One supplier I know pointed out to me that as you go higher in the tree, the proportion of earlywood to latewood tends to changes: the density drops, and so does the stiffness. Those higher-up Red or Sitka spruce tops can have the same properties as average Engelmann. Of course, it's harder to get wood wide enough for tops higher up in the tree, but they do exist.

"One supplier I know pointed out to me that as you go higher in the tree, the proportion of earlywood to latewood tends to changes: the density drops, and so does the stiffness."
Alan, this is generally true.
at the butt of most Sitka trees we cut there is usually more pitch, resins and sugars and often wild growth rings and reaction wood that adds to the weight./density.
But not always.
One tree I noticed just the opposite was our ancient sitka tree, that was buried for 3000 yrs.
At the butt, there was better grain on one side of the tree, wild grain on the other [swelled]side and lighter.
Then 16' up is became very dense. the offset heart made for a lot of compression wood and hard grain.
It was very stiff, even when cut 20+ degrees off VG. It had lots of timber bind too/ and as a result warped like a potato chip really bad. And the weight was like oak. 100% heavier than normal sitka, and what was at the butt of that tree.

I bought some of those ultralight tops from Alaska Specialty last year. I’ve only completed one guitar so far with it, but that one is amazing. It’s the loudest guitar I’ve ever made (my guitars are known for their volume) and the tone is clear and expressive. It’s about an 000 size. When I played it for my wife she asked if it was a jumbo. I bought some more of those tops.

The first Engelmann top I bought was from a 'reputable' dealer back in the 1970s, and it was like cardboard and didn't work out very well. Then I came across a guy in British Columbia Canada, around 15 years ago or so. He was processing trees from the high Rockies that were 'blow downs'. I was shocked at how good the tops were. I bought two bolts that he resawed for me at a really good price. He latter started selling to CF Martin, Gibson and Taylor, and the prices went up. His business was called Kootanay Tonewoods, but I hear he sold the business to Music Spruce Canada. Tops were fairly light and stiff, fine even grain with a lot of cross silking, and very well quartered. I'd give them a try for top notch Engelmann.

To follow up on the UL sort I mentioned. When Greg Maxwell called me asking for particular attributes, he was thinking Master Grade. I told him I have master grade, but it wasn't "light weight" like he was looking for. Ya see, he had just finished Bryan Gallups soundboard evaluation class.
I told him I had this stuff from an old bridge stringer. the log was over 65" diameter on the butt x 60 feet long. I told him by regular industry criteria of texture and color they were AA at best. He said send him a couple and a couple Master Grade. He received the boards and called my very excited, telling me they were just what he was looking for. He set the price at $100/top.All of it sold over the next couple yrs, I cut a lot of bass fronts out of that log.
Ok those sold for $100, and I only had a few hundred gtr tops, as the rest went into cello and upright bass. Today, 25 yrs later, I have stumbed upon several other logs/trees yielding the same density soundboards. But now because there's more of them, I am able to sort them by the aesthetic attributes. So now the AAA's are the price the original UL sort that was a 2A grade by aesthetics.
a lot of this sort tends to have a more open texture, wider growth lines, but not always.
If you want light weight, if you want soundboard response and sustain with light touch, and you want the hardness and toughness of sitka do a search for ultra light in our store.
They are listed in the non-figured dreadnaught size, in grades A, AA, AAA. and Master, priced from $35 for A's to $150 for Master Grade.
Have a GREAT weekend.
Brent Sr

I think this engelmann is similar to Norway spruce, at least European. Having a heck of a time with trueoil finish on this OM but... despite it's flaws I bet it's gonna sound great, And yes, it's A grade, as I hone my craft I realize as much time I spend the quality is worth the extra bucks. Trees are funny though, build and experience trump so called high grade wood. I built an A grade plantation mahogany with a few small knots, it blows players away. I think I got lucky on that one.

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Just a box with strings https://www.facebook.com/wadesguitarshoporcas

If you're having trouble with finishing, you may be over-sanding. Sanding over 220 or 320 at the most, will prevent the finish from staying on. I usually stop at 220 for the base coats and then level.

Hi Wade,
I like to work with Engelmann spruce. I build a wide variety of instruments and Engelmann has a wide range of properties - some light, tight grained, and paper white, and some heavy, uneven grained, and colorful, and everything in between. I like to pick the top to suit what I am building and will buy a number of inexpensive tops so I can choose the one I think will work best for what I am building. I will buy larger top sets to build smaller instruments so I can often cut around the defects and "upgrade" the visual appearance. Some tops have structural defects (runout, brittle grain, pitch pockets, etc. ) and are unusable for better musical instruments. Some things you can't overcome.
You might want to buy a dozen "A" grade tops, and measure their properties, and see how much variation there is. Torres used to build 3,4,or 5, piece tops when necessary to get the quality of the wood he desired for the soundboard. We are lucky that we can buy ready cut 2 piece book matched soundboards from specialist suppliers. Even so, sometimes it is better to select the best parts of a set and add "wings" to make a 4 piece top that has equally good wood throughout.