Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi everyone.

I hate to break up the recent festivities, but it’s high time I pull a top botched from a bad binding job and replace it. I glued it with original red-label Titebond.

In the past I’ve used an iron to heat and remove a top, but I don’t have one anymore. I could:

A) Use a heat gun to soften the glue, but I’m worried about potentially burning the walnut sides.

Or B) use my cutaway bending blanket, temp controller, and a 2x4 to hold it down against the soundboard. This sounds the most effective, but I’m not really sure where to set the temp.

I’d love to hear your thoughts?

It was a very difficult night for me. I was removing the binding because I thought I could do better. I've since taken advantage of some trauma-informed services and feel ready to move on.



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If you don’t have to save the top, you could set your router to the depth of the top and rout the perimeter and above the blocks. If you use the heat blanket, a couple of hundred degrees F will soften the Titebond quite nicely.

Irons aren’t very expensive.

I've routed off several tops with good success. That way you don't need to worry about burning and compromising other joints like the lining.
I don't know you would actually compromise the integrity of it, I just always worry about that kind of thing.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

James—

With a heat gun, you can avoid scorching the wood by keeping the gun moving. Keep a pallet knife handy for separating the top from the sides as you go. The glue will let go more easily once you get that first gap started and work along the edge with the pallet knife and heat gun. Just don’t hold the gun still on a spot and it should go fine.

I'd go to goodwill (or value village if you're in Canada) to find an iron cheaply. Heating the glue joint and using a thin spatula seems like the easiest way to remove the top cleanly from my experience, doubly so considering you've already removed the bindings

If it were me I would either get a cheap iron or route the top off. I have a guitar in my living room right now that was a "mule" when I was learning to build. It was built to try different tops, remove them and try another top. You may remember this guitar James it was talked about on the OLF a lot back when I was learning to brace. I was learning how to find my own way with my own bracing. It's an L-OO, one of my favorites, 2.9 lbs and it had 10 tops on it before I liked the last one the best and kept it in place to this day.

I routed the tops off with no issues and looking at it right now you would never know it's had ten different tops that were all removed.

So we do a lot of Martin warranty work being certified and having Martin refer people to us. Loose waist binding is one of the most common jobs we do for Martin. We have a special heat guy, two of them actually that is no longer manufactured and it is the only heat gun we've ever found that has a narrow enough variable heat setting that it won't smoke the sides or the finish. We have tried countless other heat guns with no success and since heat guns can get hot enough to burn your guitar or more.... I would not recommend a heat gun.

Maybe try the kind meant for circuit board soldering? Mine is adjustable in single degrees down to 100C https://www.ebay.com/itm/395392994135

I haven't tried it for instrument repair, but it would probably work.

With the sheer number of Martin guitars from the 2013-2017 time frame shedding every sort of binding (bad 'green' contact-style adhesive rushed to production use without long-term trials... incompatible with Martin's high VOC lacquer finish system), we were seeing the leading edge of the repair deluge before I left. When I drop over these days, there are usually 2-3 Martins from that time period waiting for repair or re-repair (bad binding repairs using Titebond or other poor choice for the materials)... the latest was a Jeff Tweedy shedding binding in the waists and showing the telltale lacquer separation over the binding edges. As Mr. Breakstone suggested, softening and stretching the waist binding for reapplication or removal requires very precise heat application which risks scorching the lacquer with too heavy a hand.

Like Mr. Kinchloe, we used what are known in the electronics world as hot air rework stations for the job, and had various tips that ran down to 1/16" ID as well as different shields. The industrial rework stations we used control both volumetric flow and temperature with PID-type controllers, allowing very accurate output of just the right amount of heated air on target. Rather than drive the two hours to Germantown every time I need to do some localized heating on binding or to pull an old, curled, deplasticized black pickguard on a 1970's Martin, I have a budget hot air rework station with a cheap tip set (the 1/4" is the most useful). Although it is not quite as insanely accurate as the $4K units the boys have (purchased at company auction for pennies on the dollar), my little $70 rework station and $20 tip set works as well as the high-dollar version for the sort of work luthiers have need of re" binding and dead pickguard work.

In terms of guard removal, having determined that a glue-to-top guard is not salvageable for reuse, a bit of spot heating pops even the most stubborn guard free of the wood along the preferred starting edge. Careful work with a thin palette knife allows gradual expansion of the separation with some lower-heat, reduced flow air application, and the guard usually comes off without any additional wood or adjacent finish damage. A hot air rework gun is also quite useful for the frequent reheating needed for thin palette knife separation work in hide glue joints.

The YIHUA 959D digital hot air rework station has current Prime Day pricing of $56, and there are similar units if all that is needed is some controlled hot air flow for the type of work discussed above. There are better units if you are doing actual PCB rework (the boys do some of this when rebuilding old 1980's-early 2K's onboard guitar and bass preamps), but the YIHUA unit is a common recommendation for hobby/light electronics trades repair use. Aftermarket tip sets are available for $15-$25, but make sure that compatibility is verified before purchase.

On the top/plate removal job... for vintage work such as an in situ top restoration via back removal, it can be done as described earlier in the thread with careful binding removal followed by equally tedious separation of the plate from the linings. If the top is not going to be saved, a rout-off is faster and ultimately less potentially destructive. I'd also urge making up a body mold for this sort of job if you are not the builder, as body shape is sure to change and indeed, that is something we count on when doing classical guitar neck adjustments.

We have tried them and the problem is the range and accuracy. Making flammable bindings malleable is a range of heat only about 4 - 5 degrees F. Go too low and they don't stretch and go jut a degree too high or so and the finish can bubble. One thing that We did get from the Looth group that has been helpful is Canopy glue by Pacer for loose Martin bindings. Works great.

I have used canopy glue for loose binding. So far so good. My first was a Martin dred waist and I told the client it was a little experimental and to call me if it released. It’s been over a year.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Thanks, everyone.

Looks like Amazon has an iron for $25. I may just order that. I’m hoping to remove it and just kiss the linings with the dish to clean them up.

What are you guys using to route the top off? I have a rabbeting bit set. If my palm router rode along the top I suppose that would maintain the radius on the lining to a good degree. Then just chisel away over the blocks…

Good find on the iron. I just looked at my bits from 20 years ago when I was building and I can't remember what I used or if it's even still here and not in Ann Arbor at that shop. I can tell you that the tops I built to swap out, except for the last one so whatever bit I used I was not concerned about the tops I routed off.

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Peter Havriluk

That looks like a red cedar soundboard. That's character! Gorgeous!
I've seen these colors in our EarthTone Red Cedar sort.

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