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Hey all

What's your long oil varnish of choice and what schedule do you use for thinning and finishing?

Behlen's Rock Hard has gone urethane..... I have not had good luck with urethanes.... And my last can of "The Good Stuff" has turned to a solid lump....

What's out there? I have seen Tru-Oil, Epifanes varnish and their Epifanes wood finish... Sherwin Williams and Ace varnish. Al Carruth posted about some Murdoch's "Ure-alkyd 500" product.... Pratt & Lambert #38....

Thanks

Lots of threads on these very subjects...

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

That's true - but many of the formulation changes just made it down to the hobby/enthusiast retail level. I could still get the old Behlen's Rock hard in Woodcraft as of late 2015/early 2016.... Now - it's gone.... And that's what I have used for everything "Varnish" almost 10 years now.

Most of the old posts are all about stuff that's no longer for sale.... So not really relevant. I need to know what folks are using that you can still buy now today... And how they do it...

My last can gelled - so now I have no choice but to do something different when I get my OLF challenge build box closed.... I will be ready to throw the 1st coat on the body in a month.

This forum would die if we never discussed topics that had already been discussed. I for one appreciate you asking this question as I am interested in the same topic. I'm looking forward to responses from those who know more than I do about it.

John,

I too abandoned Behlen's Rockhard after using it for ten years. I've since switched to Epifane's High Gloss Clear Varnish and like it better. I use it much like I did the Behlen's. It's uncanny the way it self levels. Looks bad when it's first brushed on, but it levels out really well.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I have no input on varnishes, but you should never brush out of the can. Always decant the finish into another container, and never pour any remainder back in the can. Most times when a can of finish gels, it's because of contamination.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

The only varnish I have ever used was Sherwin Williams Fast Dry and I cut it with a bit of mineral spirits for brushing on. It's not a super high mirror gloss but it's a nice looking finish.

I got this info from Bruce Sexauer:

Here are 2 versions of my methods I wrote out at different times:


Begin forwarded message:


I have been doing Varnish finishes since shortly after I started building guitars in 1967. After perhaps 25 guitars I moved toward the industry standard of Nitro-Cellulose finishes and worked in that medium predominately for 20 years or so. Then 10 years ago I realized I was having a bad reaction to the Nitro and recalled my fond memories of the friendly seeming varnish textures and smells, so I tried that once more. After a couple of years I dropped Nitro all together and am doing Oil Varnish as my standard finish.

I have used a number of different products, and get decent results with all of them, though some seem to smell better than others, and some are definitely harder than others, at least in the short term. I like the (763) 780-0964 German violin short oil varnishes, but they are soft for me. I have settled, for the time being, on a (763) 780-0964 product called "Rockhard Table Top" Varnish". The viscosity works for spraying right out of the can when fresh, but quickly thickens over time and requires adjustment. Remember how it started! After the first coat, thin with +/- 5% acetone, and enough Ace Hardware turpentine to get the "right" viscosity.

I use a Devilbis touch up gun with a standard tip, 1.0 whatever, I think. It is extremely important to sand the complete surface between coats. I use Norton Champagne PSA #320 (dry) on a medium block such as hard foam or felt.

I use Pore-o-pac oil based filler, and seal first with another Behlen product called "Violin Varnish", actually a shellac. It can be sprayed also.

I generally achieve a level surface in 5 coats, 1 a day. I level the fifth (sometimes the sixth or even the seventh) with Norton Abrasives #800 in water (saliva actually). I spray the last coat then a little wetter, or at least not dryer, than the others. I sand it with Norton Black Ice #1200 to absolutely level. After 3 or more days (2 weeks, if you have it) I buff with a pedestal machine and 12" wheels using first Minzerna Brown, then the other wheel with Minzerna creme. DO NOT buff the edges, it is much more easily burnt through than Nitro. Clean and do not wax.


2 years later:

Currently takes 6 to 8 coats.
Seal with Behlen violin varnish thinned 50/50 with alcohol
Pore filler I like is Pore-o-pac solvent based. I color it with MEK
dyes and artists oil paints.
Another coat of shellac after 18 hours or more.
I currently favor Ace hardware brand interior Oil Varnish (ACE
16389, and/or 276A111). The consistency is about right when you open
the can, but thin it with 10% Acetone. No more! As the can gets used
it thickens a bit, so by the end I add another 10% Turpentine. I
have found Ace Hardware to be the best brand for both solvents!
36 hours or more between coats is right.
I scuff sand with a hard block (pieces of flip-flop sandals are
extremely close to ideal) using 320 Norton Magnum PSA Don't try to
flatten it till the 3rd coat, pores remain for me until the 5th or
6th coat.
When the pores are gone I sand the next coat with 800 wet
one more coat , wait 3 days, then sanded with 1200, then buff.

Sanding the first coat is about 45 minutes, the last about 2 hours.

I use a cheap touch up gun to spray the varnish. After spraying I
put the varnish back in mixing jar and seal it back up. The Acetone
seems to keep it from skimming. If you can't smell the acetone, put
in a little more. It is pretty volatile and disappears over time. I
put a couple of ounces of Turmentine into the gun between coats,
sparay it a bit to get it up in there, and then leave it, pouring it
out before I load for the next coat. Need to actually clean the gun
every 3 months or so. I use lacquer thinner for that.

Bruce

2 more years:
Using Zinnser Sander sealer (a shellac) instead of behlen's stuff. Do NOT use their shellac, it has wax in it.

I am using foam backed sandpaper from Norton. #M makes something similar. Very useful for between coats sanding as it gets into the gullies. Not as useful for flattening. 320/400 early on, later 500/600. No use yet for the finer stuff. It’s called “Soft-touch". I get my abrasives from H and H Supply at: (763) 780-0964.

7/28/16
Te last few guitars have been sanded with 1200 wet on the penultimate caot, and 2000 wet on the final caot before buffing. I am currently waiting 3 weeks for the final coat to dry, though I doubt more than 5 days makes a real difference. Three guitars in a row completed at 6 coats!

Lacquer thinner now bothers me so much that I avoid it altogether at this point. The Harbor Freight touch up gun is $15, so when it gets too messy, I just replace it. One gun does between ten and fifteen guitars.


Bruce Sexauer

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

I have used Tru-Oil, Pratt & Lambert #38 Gloss, and Ace Hardware Interior Varnish. Years ago there was talk of Pratt & Lambert going out of business, but I still find it on the shelves at a high end paint store local to me. I don't know whether they ship or not, but if you wanted to try that varnish you could call them and see what they say. The store is called Daly's and here's a link to the contact page on their website: http://www.dalyspaint.com/contact.html

I, too, have communicated with Bruce Sexauer and the application process I follow is a modified version of what Kevin shared above. The main variation being that I choose to brush or wipe on all finishing materials, as opposed to using a sprayer. I've used old T-shirt scraps, blue paper shop towels, natural bristle brushes, and foam brushes, all achieving pretty much the same results, which I would describe as satisfactory but not expert. I believe this is because I do not yet have a buffing station and rub my finishes out by hand. Personally, I like the look, but would be lying if I said I attained a perfect, glass-like finish.

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George :-)

I only use Epifanes in my canoe shop, so its only natural that I use it for guitar work, too. Its thick out of the can, so it is expected to be thinned.

I also really like Interlux, their Schooner is very nice.

http://www.yachtpaint.com/can/diy/products/varnishes/search.aspx

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I've used the Murdoch's Alkyd 500 on several guitars now, and really like it. There are a few keys to using it that Al Carruth has covered in detail before (I'm a student of his..) so I won't repeat it all. Easy to use, good hard finish, takes polishing well, has held up very well, good stuff.

I get my varnish from International Violin.

Of course. There are lots of threads on this subject. Search the archives before you mere mortals bother us with ur questions! Then again, I have never ascribed to that line of thinking. I think an active forum and a good one is where you can ask any question without fear of the insidious RTFM or "try searching before you ask". The OLF is just such a place. I have asked endless, previously answered questions here. And I learned a lot. Thank you.

I use Enduro-var waterborn. Not sure if that helps. Good luck.

Mike

enduro - var waterborne, by general finishes, tru-oil, behlens rock hard varnish , and my own shellac mix for FP

I have used Pettit Z Spar 1015 Captains Varnish for a few years now on the recommendation of Robert Ruck. He provided me schedule with detail instructions from his use of it for a number of years. I like it very much, but have no experience with other varnishes to compare it to.

Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Forgot to mention that I brush it.

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Has anybody here tried the new Urethane base Behlen's Rock Hard?

Dr Google has come up with nothing useful on it... It seems like nobody is using it for anything.

I have a few quarts of Ace varnish that I am not using. Send me an email if interested.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Tim, Thanks for the offer. What sort of varnish is it? Phenolic or alkyd? Does it work pretty well right out of the can or does it take a recipe to use it? Does it make a good hard finish or is it pretty soft?

In the mean time....

I have about 2 half cans of the old Rock Hard that I'm going to use up.... It's in the process of gelling into a lump - but I should be able to finish up the Challenge Build guitar with it.

I also found an old can of "Fix all varnish" in the stash. Not sure it's worth fooling around with that stuff because I can't find any info on it at all... But if it does work - it's still a dead end for me...

I went ahead and bought a can of the new Urethane Rock Hard... I also got some Epifanes - I am going to try out the Laurent Brondel recipe (yikes $$$.$$ so you can change sailboat varnish into furniture varnish) ... It just seems like a whole lot of hassle to get back around to something that worked just fine without any trouble out of the can. But thus is life.

Have had great success with Tru-oil, getting better each time,though many coats are required. Thinning on the final few coats seem to help.
I may try Epiphanes though as it is readily available here and Tru-oil is only sold in 30ml bottles.

This is the last one with Tru-oil

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

When it comes to true varnish, I too use Z-spar's Captain's Varnish. I've used it on a dozen guitars over five years. It brushes and sprays well. Thin with Xylol which is basically what Z-Spar's thinner is at 1/4 the cost. Because it is designed as an exterior marine varnish, it holds up really well and looks spectacular.

Whether applied by brush or spray, sand well between coats. Allow 24 hours between coats. You can grain fill with by brushing takes 4-5 coats, sanding down each coat well. Spraying, if you've done good prep and grain fill before hand, can be done in 2 coats. Wet sand and polish in 5-10 days. Some say you can't get a high gloss polish but I've had no problem with this. Menzerna and 14" buffing wheel.

When I first started using it, I tested Epifanes as well as Captains. While I like Epifanes on boats because it holds up better, it does not get as hard as Captains, ever. Harder is better for guitars.

That said, for high gloss varnish/nitro like finish, I now use EnduroVar most of the time. It is faster/easier to apply and clean up after. EV is half the coat of Captain's and I like working without solvent fumes. EV applies, sands and polishes well. I seal the wood well with unwaxed shellac before applying EV. If I'm grain filling with epoxy, I use shellac as a tie coat between the epoxy and EV.

Then there is French polish, still my favorite if it works for the customer.

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Craig Bumgarner

Bumgarner Guitar Blog

Gloss with polished Captains:

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Craig Bumgarner

Bumgarner Guitar Blog

Craig - Thats some beautiful work there.

I appreciate the suggestion of Captain's. I will have to look into that.

Did you try Laurent Brondel's guitar concoction recipe mixture of Epifanes, accelerator, thinner, and Japan drier or just straight out of the can? Reason I am asking is that most spar varnishes are pretty darned soft and pliable - which would be expected out of Epifanes.... While I haven't brewed up any yet - I hear Laurent's mix hardens it up considerably with the addition of the extra resin "accelerator" and Japan drier.

It seems like few people use varish finishes... Or at least nobody talks about them much. And that surprises me... They are MUCH easier for hobby builders like me to do than Nitro... No spray gear, explosion proof stuff, or respirator equipment needed.

I have not played around with additives as I feel like I've gotten good results as is. I thin only as needed to get it to flow well. Brushing that is usually ~ 5%. Over thinning is a common mistake. Again Xylol is the thinner, mineral spirits and paint thinners will likely cause fish eye. If you want to brush varnish, consider that Captain's is primarily used as a brushing varnish and levels very well. With good technique and a badger hair brush, it can be laid down like glass. If you sand out the brush strokes between coats, the final can be dead level when brushing. You have to use a good brush, badger hair is what I use. A good 2" badger hair brush will set you back $25-$30 but will last 10 years or more if you clean it well and take care of it. Some people like foam brushes and swear by them, I never had much luck with them.

There is at least some speculation that oil base varnish is dampening compared to nitro or shellac. May well be true, but I play all my guitars in the white before finishing and don't think I hear a difference. I do try to keep the finish thickness on the top as thin as possible, but it is inherently thicker than French polish.

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Craig Bumgarner

Bumgarner Guitar Blog