Official Luthiers Forum!

Well this is kinda interesting... especially for someone like me with near zero woodworking skills.

When I built my first in Al Carruth's shop, one of the few power tools there was a planer (though nobody got to touch it) so I of course thought it was essential.

I do know that in a few processes when I tried to square up a little piece of wood with a plane, it seemed to take forever! First one side would be a bit low, then I'd go too far and it would drop on the other, then back again. Over and over. And over. Finally had to whack the square with a hammer to finally get that piece to register square! (Kidding Al!)

So maybe I'll wait to get one until I learn enough to see the need? I was kind of viewing it as something that would help to hide my inadequate abilities... Then again Al was full of horror stories (hence no one else got to use the planer) and I really don't have a great urge to get one for the same reason that the radial arm saw I bought years ago has only been used twice.

I like my thumbs.

My guess is that there are far more emergency room visits as a result of chisel and knife accidents as compared to a power joiner incidents. Safety first -- all good. I just recently removed a post from our forum where a guy was recommending that all the guards be removed from a table saw to make it easier to use -- really??

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I like mine. I use it to true up one side of neck blanks prior to routing the truss rod slot and carbon bar inserts, and to flatten the fretboard face. I use it to true up one side of a fretboard blank prior to cutting to width and for flattening the back of fretboards prior to thicknessing them on the drum sander. Also for rough joining of plates prior to using the plane and lots of little stuff.

What I'd really like is a wide one to flatten the back of archtop plates. Doing that on a big sanding board takes a lot of elbow grease. It is surprising how few of those are around. None of the cabinet shops locally have one.

BTW Ken, I was an orthopaedist for 30 years and we saw tons of power tool injuries. You are right, jointer injuries were uncommon as were router injuries. I don't think I ever saw a band saw injury.

The vast majority were from the table saw and kickback when hand pushing stock through seemed the most common mechanism. The hand would slip into the blade.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Its my understanding that the guards are there to protect the blades from damage.
Good blades are costly.

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

Our situation is a bit different because we process raw lumber. We would be out of business without it. Coming from a cabinet/furniture making background I have been using a jointer for over 35 years. We have a 15" Grizzly parallelogram with the spiral cutter head. Excellent tool.

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That was me and I stand by what I said; however I didn't say "to make it easier to use" rather I think the blade guard is dangerous since you can't see the blade. Of course one needs to be conscious of the inherent risks of using any power tool. I've been using table saws for over 50 years and never even had a close call.

I'm with you. My main point was that the mill lets you do something extremely efficiently, and some people use their jointers for the same reason. I use my #5 1/2 for jointing plates and prepping stock. It probably takes me 1/2 hour to get a great joint without any light peeking through when I press a top against a window. It sounded like it takes Bri 30 seconds with his jointer. So my argument there simply went to efficiency being a legitimate use of one in order to counter the argument that any interest in having one is deviating from the goal.

My buddy has incredible hand tool skills. He's been woodworking since childhood and apprenticed with a classical guitar maker in Germany for three years. I'm in awe when I watch him work because of how effortless his problem-solving and skill is. He's a huge cyclist and lately he's been making these really cool aero handlebars out of wenge and zebrawood. The most used tool in his (single car garage converted to a) shop is his jointer. It's just different strokes.



I'll just say that I access to a plasma cutter in the maker space I belong to, but I've never used it. It hasn't been necessary for the things I do, either. I still don't think I have experience with it



If I had a Collins Saddle Mill I'd find uses for it because it's awesome. I'd even use it to slice bread if I could In your context it makes a lot of sense that it gets so much use.

I feel the same way about mine.

Seriously I do use if for squaring up necks. I also join tops - if a jointer is good enough for Mario Proulx to join tops...

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

Now that's funny Kevin!!!

That a different context to " flat on your back"

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

Hesh wrote;
"When I started doing repairs a week could go by without a use for a chisel.... Years go by without a use for a jointer...... The real, commercial world of Lutherie is VERY different for what we tool-up to do in our home shops."

If a guitar repairman wants to call himself a luthier, that's fine by me. But shouldn't a luthier be primarily in the business of making stringed musical instruments? And one would expect a master luthier to have a reputation for building really fine stringed musical instruments. Not to take anything away from guitar repairmen, but they are kind of in relation to a luthier, as an auto mechanic is to an auto maker.
It's understandable you may not have a need for chisels and joiners and other tools useful for building guitars - you're not building guitars, you're repairing them.

Wow, looks like around the same vintage as mine (1899) is that an American or a Yates or a The Porter....

Seriously, Though.......

I do use mine for a lot of guitar related activities like jointing tops and back, facing necks and head surfaces, flattening archtop plates ,prepping neck laminates.

I usually start out with rough lumber so it is the tool I use when prepping stock.

I hate to bite, but...

A good part of our business is fixing all the mistakes on custom high end "luthier" built guitars, because most of them quite honestly are riddled with problems. Hate to say it, but it's a fact, and I have to say applies to a majority of luthier built guitars we see. Many "luthiers" really think they are doing great work, because they are incapable of recognizing all the shortcomings that us simple repair folk just shake our heads over when we see.

This certainly doesn't apply to everyone, and we also see a lot of fantastic work from small production luthiers come across our benches. There is a very consistent correlation we notice between the highest quality instruments and the builders' experience though - the best all have many years experience in the trenches of the repair world. They have interacted directly with thousands of playing clients rather than dozens, they witness the failures in others work and are tasked with correcting them. They see what does and doesn't work, what qualities different designs consistently deliver, and have an intimately developed sense of player demands and interactions with their instruments which I know of no other way to attain to such a high degree.

So use the term as you wish. If you want to imagine a true luthier as Geppetto toiling away by oil lamp, hand crafting a handful of guitars a year, that's fine. I really don't care, it's a word. I tend to think of this as a maker, or builder, both perfectly respectable titles. A luthier, I think of as a job title, one with a few subcategories such as maker or repair person. When one has achieved a level of journeyman or master (admittedly undefined by any formal guild or union), and pays their mortgage, puts food on the table, and sends their kids to school by income from this profession, that's a luthier.

I don't care too much about semantics, but when one uses their personal interpretation to imply some diminutive, delegitimization of another's craft, I have to call it and take issue.

"If a guitar repairman wants to call himself a luthier...

You're not building guitars, you're just [emphasis added] repairing them."

Give me a friggin break. Hesh has built a few dozen guitars, and I'm somewhere around 200. After spending 20+ years repairing (half of which I've been working together with Hesh), I feel I am in a position to say that in a goal toward mastery of the trade, building guitars is a fun way to get your feet wet. If you want to debate what it takes to become a "luthier" (as if that really means much), you need to spend a good amount of time in the trenches of repair to gain a thorough and intimate understanding of the craft.

I have many colleagues who undoubtedly rank as top master luthiers, with little more than a few sporadic builds in their portfolio. There are even more builders I see instruments from which I would have a hard time ranking much above "hobbyist makers trying their best". This represents the multitude of builders who don't really understand the finer details, because they're not really working with guitars, they're just building them.

That's my personal opinion anyway. A more objective one (though not necessarily reflective of mastery or skill) might be what is your full time trade, or would a bank accept your proof of income from this profession to grant you a mortgage? The romanticized image of this trade can get pretty thick, but in the end it's just a professional trade.

Anyway, planers are a great thing to have around if space allows for it. Not a priority in my opinion for most small volume builders in this field though, especially if you can arrange to still have access to one at another shop when you really need it.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Fair enough. These days, when we say "auto maker" we mean Ford or Toyota. It might be hard to find an individual "auto maker" who could do the whole job: build the engine and frame from raw materials, make the bearings, the gaskets, the upholstery, paint the parts, plate the parts, do the wiring, mold the tires, etc. If you find that guy, I'll bet his background says, "auto mechanic".

And on the other hand...guitar builders who have grown up in a culture of high level guitar building, and spent decades building concert level guitars, getting feedback from excellent players, can build very fine guitars without ever having repaired (or played) a guitar.

Relax everyone Clay is doing what I was doing, trolling.

What's a Luthier to me? To me it's not a romanticized title that some hack adopts to add to their list of incomplete professions with the entitlement stemming from producing a guitar like object (GLO - attribution to Rick Turner) that would not pass muster with an evaluation from a working-in-the-trade REAL Luthier.... It's also not someone who can twist screw drivers in a big box store and pull a high e string into proper intonation.... on not..... It's also not a woodworker.... who is expanding their horizons and putting together a guitar like box using wood that they had laying around and having little to no understanding why frets are spaced as they are or about neck geometry or even how others beyond themselves may deploy such a thing to make music.

So what is a Luthier?

To me.... a Luthier can build a fine guitar from scratch and their mind's eye and imagination that WILL be infinitely playable by any guitar player and will play in tune everywhere with no unnatural acts. It's also a person who understands that Rickenbacker basically sucks with their designs in some respects. It's also someone who can repair a crack on an original and valuable Hauser or Pre-War Martin without degrading the instrument in any way and with the repair being considered appropriate for the instrument by the few top folks who deal in Pre-War Martins or Hausers.

It's a working in the trade... professional with a body of work that permits the folks with very valuable instruments to confidently rely on this person for the care and feeding of their five or six figure.... valuable instrument.

It's a person who can repair or replace any and all parts and aspects of a guitar even though it likely won't always make economic sense to do so. And it's someone who can create a fret plane that the grease ball weekend wedding Les Paul player will be happy with his action of 3 and 4.

Then you know it's also the person who gets approached by a special needs teacher and by request can take a little guitar and make it infinitely easier to play so that the developmentally disabled little girl that it belongs to will struggle less and maybe not at all playing it.

It's a person who can repair well an A lister's primary ax, not offend them or make them feel uncomfortable because of their fame and presence and even once in a while ask the A-lister how this or that part of their smash hit is actually played.

I'll add that it might.. also be a person who appreciates working for that little developmentally disabled girl or repurposing a donated guitar for a homeless young man as much as fixing the ax of the A-lister.... and believes as they do, as I do... that everyone deserves to have great music in their lives.

In a nut shell a Luthier can have any manner of plucked stringed instruments and issues thrown at them with little explanation and they will know what to do, what not to do, who to do it for and who to send packing. It's a mind set, it's a passion, it's a skill set, it's an experience base, and to some of us it's at least a degree of humanity...... that stems from an innate desire to help and serve others.

I'll let you guys or some of you define what a Luthier is to you but this is my story and I'm sticking to it....

Not trying to keep this going....total newborn (newb even) with little experience.....but I read and have an opinion and thoughts. = )

Hesh, I feel that you are describing the epitome of a luthier; a person who can do everything. We know not everyone can be "that guy". The highest level of recognition is usually reserved for these types of people, Master Luthier perhaps as I have heard the term. I will never be one of these (people), but does it mean I will never be a luthier?

I have a feeling that you will tell me "NO", your a GLO Builder. This is fine with me, however there is the issue of the literal definition.

To me Hesh=Experienced Luthier.

By default, I consider all contributors to this forum "luthiers" of varying capabilities.

After all, we are on the Official Luthiers Forum.

Peace!

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Wake up and smell the rosewood!

We build and repair, so the jointer is a handy tool to have available - ours is an 8" carbide insert helical head long bed model that is very useful for jointing highly figured or abrasive woods, and is used perhaps 10-15 minutes per week...but for those few minutes, it pays for itself.

Necessary for everyone? I think it depends.

- For a small custom build operation that mills it's own wood, it seems like a jointer is an optional, but still desirable tool

- For a builder that teaches and must prep more than the a guitar's worth of material a month, it is likely a significant time-saver

- For a repair shop that does more of the sort of store-front, walk-in work which we avoid, I would question whether it's worth the space and cost, when a sharp jack plane can handle the occasional need for jointing an edge or squaring up a neck blank or already-glued assembly.

In the words of Joni Mitchell, "You don't know what you got till it's gone." Sell your jointer and find out. Even the worst case has an upside - you get to buy a new insert helical cutter-head model that will banish the task of sharpening blades forever should you find yourself in need of your former shop mate.

For what it's worth, both the OED and Merriam Webster define a luthier as 'one who builds stringed instruments', and Wikipedia and most of the other online dictionaries define a luthier as one who 'makes or repairs...," which would cover just about anyone reading this post. We have no accepted definition for a master repairman, but the market provides us with some pretty good clues. I would hesitate to deny that honorific to anyone generating 400-500 repair tickets a year primarily by word-of-mouth advertising.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Hey Gregor! I hope you are doing well!

Here's where you are wrong my friend. Hesh is not going to be telling anyone anything in respect to who is a Luthier and who's not NOR has he done this to date either. It's not for me to say what you or anyone else is. That's not how I roll.

You are going to have to answer your own question as to what you are yourself and that's what we all should do. Does anyone really think that when I fix a bunch of guitars on Monday and get paid for same that I am going to be worrying about what anyone on and Internet forum with little or no actual Lutherie experience thinks of me.... Not a chance, I've made my place for myself and earned my way and as an older dude now I'm enjoying the hell out of what my place in the world is these days.... It's all that I wanted and more.

My mention of GLOs is in the context of a Master Luthier with decades of experience who graced our forum in the past and who I might ask to come back and do some insulting again... Rick Turner who basically told us here on the OLF back in the day that many of us were GLO builders, not Luthiers until such time as we do time in the repair trenches.

BTW Rick's original message back in the day was not taken kindly by your's truly.... I was insulted, personally... and thought Rick to be something that rhymes with Rick... Once I met him, once I had dozens of built guitars under my belt and once I had thousands of repaired guitars under my belt.... I changed my mind and now completely agree with Rick... Go figure... Rick is also a hell of a nice guy in person by the way. James knows him too, right James?

Certainly that's Rick's opinion and may not be yours but these days it is indeed my opinion too and you kind of sort of asked me what my opinion is so I am sharing now. When I see folks self describing themselves as Luthiers and then having to ask the very most basic questions relating to the every day, bread and butter of Lutherie I feel sad for the title Luthier - it seems to have no objective meaning what so ever.... Nonetheless that won't stop some from using it in a race to the bottom with an agenda....

And.... to quote a famous quote... what difference does it make.... what I think anyway. Everyone should be enjoying what you wish to enjoy, doing what you want to do, and calling yourself what ever you wish to call yourselves. I'm not the one who attempted to define the term Luthier but I am the one who believes that woodworking is part of Lutherie but by no means all of it or even most of it at times. Lutherie is very much a multi-disciplinary pursuit that often draws from science, physics, woodworking, artistry, finance....., economics..... (we have to live to play another day), business, psychology, psycholinguistics (we have to understand clients and what they REALLY want...), law (need to stay on the straight and narrow), tax law, finishing skills, tool skills, hand tool skills, understanding glues, history (it's helpful when having a Hauser handed to ya to know what it is...), and a partridge and a pear tree and much more. Woodworking is only part of the gig although an important part for sure.

How does Hesh self describe? I call myself a Luthier and at times a professional Luthier and/or working-in-the-trade Luthier. I have a body of work to show for it, over a decade in the trade, hundreds of folks who depend on me to keep their instruments singing and a passion for the trade that seems to defy rational thought at times.... Will I ever be a Master Luthier - likely not and not a goal that I really have these days. I started too late in life to ever be where Dave Collins has been for some time now and still climbing. I'm also older and things are declining important things such as vision, etc. I'll also quote Leonard Cohen who I got to meet and talk with... and who said that he aches in the places where he used to play.... me too.... Nonetheless I love where I am at and enjoy every single day, well most of them...

Take care

This has gotten to rather interesting and though I felt somewhat rejected initially, its debates like this which open our eyes and expand the scope of our views.
This exchange of perspectives has made me consider, or rather remember, to keep an open mind.
David, a couple of things;
I would disagree that by definition a luthier would need to earn his living by doing so. For myself I have no intention now or ever to be in the guitar selling or repairing business, as I give them away to friends or in some cases players without financial ability to purchase a luxury item such as a guitar.
I have little concern on the value of my time, overhead or profit. I do need to control material costs as I am not independantly wealthy, but this should not determine ones ability to earn the title luthier.

The title "master" has always bothered me when attached to any endeavor. To me it implies that the individual has reached the pinnacle of their chosen field and has learned all there is in said field.
We all know that this is not likely to happen. Too many have used the term loosely, only to minimize the rare master. I know I will not live long enough to be able to use the term for myself. When I see apprentices complete their training and achieve journeyman status, some it seems believe they can place the word master on their shingle and maybe through ignorance not realize that journeyman training has only given them the tools to start to learn. I personally hold 2 journeyman tickets and have realized that I there is no way to absorb a fraction of the knowledge in either field. But the more experience gained, aids in how we tackle the next challenge.

David, you mentioned that you see the mistakes made, intentionally or not, by builders.
It would be helpful for many of us to see a list of the more common problems you encounter so those of us interested in improving could avoid or at least consider the why's.
If time allows please start a thread regarding this.

Just to keep this on topic, some more jointer talk.
When I set up my current shop, space as always was a concern. I needed a bigger jointer but something had to give. I ended up with a combination jointer/ planer from SCM.
I Was a little apprehensive initially, but it has turned out to suit my needs perfectly.
I Can switch between the two functions in under 2 minutes.

B

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

"You're not building guitars, you're just [emphasis added] repairing them."

David,
Please do not add pejorative words to my post. It is dishonest to change the tenor of my statements as written.


"Relax everyone Clay is doing what I was doing, trolling."

Not so much, Hesh,
I was stating my opinion as to whom I would consider a luthier. There are many fine guitar repairman who have never built a stringed instrument. I would not call them luthiers. There are lackluster luthiers who are concerned more about an instruments appearance than it's playability and soundness of construction. Good repairman and bad luthiers do exist in my book.
There are guitar repairmen who also build guitars. I would consider them to be both repairmen and luthiers. This is my opinion.
The Dictionary definitions for luthier vary widely - anything from someone who makes lutes and violins, to anyone who works on stringed instruments. I think my definition would be somewhere in the middle of that.

Oh! and some luthiers use jointers and some don't.

Clay, while a few do not, the majority of dictionaries define luthier as one who builds or repairs stringed instruments, this includes the ultimate authority on every topic, Wikipedia. Who can argue with them?

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

No one word can accurately describe the particular collection of skills anyone has. Thankfully English is not restricted to one word descriptions. Just expanding to two. We get:

Experienced (luthier)
Skilled (luthier)
Master (luthier)



Beginning (luthier)
Hack (luthier)
Crap (luthier)
etc.

All luthiers in my book.

With the exception of face jointing for re-sawing, I don't consider a jointer essential for lutherie, (But I'm keeping mine ).

Steve, for gods sake is it gone yet?

Exactly and well said - nothing like razor sharp wit too.

Remember please as mentioned I was offended by the view of one of the most experienced Luthiers around who was Jerry Garcia's tech and even survived it all... But at the end of the day I was wrong, r - o - n - g and said so and more importantly grew from the realization that I was wrong.