Official Luthiers Forum!

Awhile ago they seemed to be gaining favor. I haven't heard much about them in some time now. I checked LMI's site and the don't seem to carry the waffle material anymore (lomax???)

Have they died a natural death? I was thinking I would try one on my next classical build.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Nomex. LMI still has it:

http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-woo ... wood/nomex

I built one and didn't really like the way it came out. I mean it was simply okay but nothing to write home about. It didn't have that romantic Spanish guitar quality, if that makes any sense.

I've made some nice double tops, but the buying segment holds the spruce/cedar top as the gold standard so until that changes, whats the point? Even if you can get more response and or volume out of it, it still going to sound slightly different to a solid wood top. Plus it's a lot more work.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Has anyone tried making a larger guitar with one? Seems to me that solid cedar is already pretty much the right balance of mass and stiffness for a traditional classical guitar.

I believe Peter from Cornerstone guitars made a beautiful mid-jumbo double redwood topped guitar. He said it sounded great. Don't know if he is still round'abouts.

The market lagging behind is a pretty good reason to hold off. What I am planning is a redwood topped, lattice braced classical, with an arm rest. That might be enough for one build.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

There are lots of double tops in the classical world. They are getting pretty mainstream and appear in concerts often. The variety of double top designs has exploded as well--cores of Nomex, balsa, cedar, foam core, solid, perforated, slats. This variety continues to grow and so has the variety of sound. It's pretty fascinating to observe the evolution taking place among builders and players. Double tops will probably never dominate, but will just be another choice among solid tops, lattice braced tops and who knows what else.

I think I brought this up in the past on the forum but I don't see why suppliers don't sell pre-made double tops. I understand that it can be a sort of personal signature process by individual luthiers but really it's just Nomex sandwiched between thin layers of soft wood and I know I already copied a well known design and I get the feeling that's what a lot of DT makers do anyway. They are a PIA to make and if I was going to make another one I'd probably rather just buy a top. I mean heck, you can get torrified tops and pre-pressed arch tops now why not DT's?

You listening Stew Mac?

Double tops are all I do. I really believe in them, at least the way I build mine. I've done big guitars, small guitars and medium sized guitars with double tops. I've even done ukes of all sizes with double tops. I've done lots of experimenting with wood combinations including all of the spruces over spruce, cedar over spruce, mahogany over spruce, walnut over spruce, redwood over spruce, etc. (Obviously I've found spruce to be the most successful inner wood)
When I do shows, I don't make a big deal of advertising that fact that they are DTs. I find that the general guitar buying public are a bunch of snobs (and I include myself in that stereotype) that don't care for change much. So I let them play the guitar for a bit and then inform them of what they are playing. One guy was asking me, whilst playing one of my guitars, if I had ever heard of a double top because he didn't think they sounded very good. I told him he was playing one. I think it was all he could do to not call me a liar. He looked inside, tapped, poked, etc to get proof that the guitar he was playing was in fact a DT. Yes, they can be made to sound fabulous. I just think a lot of the builders that have dabbled with them, don't know how to do it.

That sounds like a smart idea woolson. I think you may be right too. I only built one and like I said it was okay just not such an eye opener that I wanted to rush into building the next one. When you started did you have the same experience or was it an instant Eureka moment? The one I built I copied the techniques of Alan Dunwell in one of Robbie O'Briens videos right down to the thickness and everything.

The one thing I remember was thinking that it was over braced but I was advised to brace it as normal. I still even thinned the braces out more then I would have but the DT felt like a braced top without having any braces on it.

If you write a book, I'll buy it

I'll second buying a video or Book on Double Top's from Paul.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Actually the first one I built totally knocked my socks off. So much so that I sent it out on the road to be reviewed by anyone that was interested in doing so. I think it made 28 stops, one being Acoustic Guitar Magazine, which got an amazing full page write up. I was able to get a bunch of recordings as well which was kind of my idea for the whole "road trip". Lots of people playing very different styles of music, all on one guitar. Worked quite nicely. I still have a bunch of the recordings on my website if you are interested in listening. woolsonsoundcraft.com

My method is different than most. And, in my opinion, it shows. Many DTs that I've played are loud, but that's it. No dynamic range, no real tone. Just volume. That's pretty much what you'll get if you build to the specs of the videos out there. It won't be bad, but it won't be what it has the potential to be.

To the braces: You are 100% correct. The top it totally braced already. The deflection is very similar to a braced single top. I put very thin braces in simple for the purpose of tuning the top to my liking. Without any bracing you get what you get and you don't throw a fit!

Ok that is interesting. I'll definitely go have a listen on your website. That pretty much describes the DT I built. It's loud and punchy which is nice but it doesn't really have that rich tone that I get from a traditionally built guitar.

I just listened to the four recordings on your site. Those guitars sound great! I didn't know anyone was making steel string DTs - I thought everyone building them was doing Spanish guitars. I know your bracing schemes must be proprietary but I would love to know how you build and tune a DT. Neat stuff!

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

Here are the "road trip" recordings. All done on the same guitar.
http://woolsonsoundcraft.com/Downloads/Download.html

That is a great sounding guitar Paul. The best thing is how it stands up to so many different playing styles.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Thanks, Joe!
I had a hunch that if there were such a thing as a "do everything" guitar, that this would be as close as it comes.

The sound clips do sound good. I wish I could play one in person though and get the real feel for it.