Official Luthiers Forum!

Also, it dries crispy hard, like HHG. Titebond only gets to a hard, gummy worm state.

Is it tacky when still open? My biggest complaint with pva is it's low initial tack and it's tendency to slip.


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It is quite tacky when wet, yes. Norland / Lee Valley actually labels it as "High Tack Fish Glue".

Another advantage of fish glue (and HHG) over PVA glues is that it is easily re-activated by water, which makes many repairs a lot easier. Violin family instruments are constructed so the top and back can be relatively easily removed for repairs, but it wouldn't be so easy if the glue didn't have this property. Add more glue and / or water plus heat, and the joint can be reassembled. With PVA's, you need to remove the old glue, which can be difficult ore even impossible in some instances, before reassembly.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Terrific discussion!
I might chime in only to offer that I have been using fish glue on my last 15 or so hobby guitars and really like the open time and it drying clear and hard.
I have used it for bridges as well but will not now following the sage advice given here.... no failures yet but....

Rob

Well I just got my bottle from lee Valley and plan to experiment with it before I really commit to it. Maybe I'll glue ups various scraps of wood used in guitar making and some not. Do some moisture and heat test to see how easy or difficult it is to release.

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Another day, another dollar.

Mr. B's comment suggesting that Messrs. French and LaPlante's guitars might provide us with a useful record of fish glue longevity motivated me to cruise the classical guitar sites for any evidence of fish glue-related issues. While Mr. French seems to have stopped building at some time during the recent and still somewhat ongoing economic unpleasantness, Mr. LaPlante is still producing instruments and actively participating on other builder sites. Both builders' instrument appear to command reasonable prices on the used market, and none of the classical guitar enthusiasts sites which I can search mention anything about failed bridge joints or other issues beyond bemoaning the fact that Mr. French has apparently exited the trade as an active builder.

Many thanks to Mr. Collins, Mr. Rian, and others for providing some clarity on their own experiences with fish glue and suggestions on storage and use. It's good to know that - short of significant abuse or storage in very humid conditions - it is a viable general adhesive for instrument building.

Finally, thanks to Mr. Hall for commenting on your experiences with fish. I hope to attend the next Mid-Atlantic get together and meet some of those amazing builders seen in your photos of the previous events - any idea of when and where the next Open House might be held?

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Next get together will most likely be in Columbia NC in the spring.

It is always great to hook up and discuss techniques and suppliers

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

You will find threads discussing fish glue failures in the classical forums (try Delcamp, for example), but they usually involve exposure to extreme humidity conditions. It is difficult to tell from the outside just what those conditions actually were so it is always difficult to diagnose whether the glue should be suspect for use in more controlled conditions.

I use fish glue for pretty much everything except fretboard/neck joint. FWIW, all of my glue joint failures when I was just getting started were attributable to over-clamping and starved joints, particularly epoxy joints on fretboard/neck. I'm guessing fish glue, with its long open time, would be susceptible to more squeeze out and potential joint starvation if clamped a little too tightly during a glue-up, relative to typical experiences with hide glue?

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Professor Kirby: I will broaden my search criteria beyond the French and LaPlante guitars! Thanks so much for the Delcamp reference - not sure how I missed that forum, but looks like a marvelous resource for classical guitar builders and players!

Mr. Hall: North Carolina is a very reasonable drive - I will see what I can do to ensure a good turnout from the local boys. Again - thanks for all you do for the community!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

I have been using fish for neck laminates and fretboards glue-ups, including bookmatched fretboards (two-piece), and have seen no issues with that, either. I apply glue to to both surfaces and tend to perform a bit of a "rub joint" as those doing classical guitar braces might do in an old world way. It's great for linings, blocks, et cetera.

It is interesting to me that all the majors are now carrying this glue. believe it works well for small builders (that can live with the open time). I use it for crack and brace repairs almost exclusively. The open time is good - plenty of wicking action, excellent cleanup (especially inside the box). For crack repairs I like using fish glue in two passes - first thinned so we get good wicking and capillary action, then follow with regular consistency fish glue, which I work in with pressure on my index finger. Clean-up is great, no worries about heat or open time, and those kinds of repairs can sit for 24 hours without issue.

One benefit of hot hide glue in the above instance (cracks, at least, as braces are re-clamped) is that it is known to draw the joint together as it dries. On 15" of top, I doubt anything is pulling that much wood anywhere, but it leads me to wonder if fish glue has the same characteristic as it dries?

John, what's in Columbia, NC by the way?

Andy

I feel obligated to jump in again to make sure my thoughts are clear. In reading back on what I wrote, I want to be sure that my acknowledgement of fish glue as a "great glue" was not mistaken as an endorsement of broad use. For the record, I think hot melt glue sticks can be a "great glue" as well, for certain applications.

I know a lot of folks love fish glue and are fairly wed to it. I was for quite a while as well, and in hindsight feel a tinge of guilty responsibility for openly promoting years back. Just to be clear though, my intent was more a kind, tempered note of caution.

Glue joints are something akin to medical studies. The ultimate effects cannot be appraised in the lab or six week follow ups, but require observations of a broad population of subjects, monitoring development years out to appraise long term effects. With the volume of work done in our shop, and the scale on which we used fish glue early on before many in this trade had heard of it, means we have a pretty broad pool of data from which to appraise its merits.

From this experience, today we still do use fish glue, but sparingly and with careful consideration of stresses and conditions a joint may have to endure. It has gone from a glue I used for half the jobs in my shop ten years ago, down to closer to one or two percent today. It's still a great glue for a few applications, but not a first choice here for many.

If I were building today, I doubt I would be using it for much of anything, maybe for gluing on dovetail neck joints, but not much else.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Nicely put David,

What would your current general glue of choice be then?

Rob

Thanks Rob. I'm really not sure if I have a favorite, or what it would be if I were building. I use hide glue for a number of things like bridge reglues, headstock repairs, cracks and cleats, but I will also use PVA or fish glue on cracks, cleats, and loose braces. I also use a fair amount of epoxies, CA's, and others when they seem best suited. Which I choose for a particular job honestly depends a bit on what you might say is a gut feeling.

Not the most controlled, scientific explanation I know. I could probably break down the factors of conditions and observational experience on which I base these choices, but there are a lot of nuances to choices in repair that differ from the concerns of most here in building.

I presented a lecture on adhesives at the Northwoods seminar several years ago, where with a 4 hour window I was able to go in to a lot more detail on the principles I turn to to guide choice in individual application. There's a method to the madness in there somewhere, and a lot of different compromises to weigh, with no one silver bullet or "best" for everything.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Thanks for the kind words

Lets look at a few things about glue and glues in general
A glues will be one of 2 types
Drying ( basically water bases glue as fish hot hide and Franklin hide glue . You put them on and the water evaporates . The glue sticks.

B curing glues Tite bond , epoxy once cured they never become glue again

So use that when planning. Tite bond , Elemers White are fine glues but do tend to be more plastic.

I don't use epoxy or super glue as much as I did when I started.

You are after all making your guitar. Plan the animal protein glues for the repairable areas.

have fun with it. that is key

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Hide glue can be extended for open time extensively by adding salt. NaCl.


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Ken

Haven't found the need although I am curious. How much salt and what does it do to the strength?

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I have slowly tried to work epoxy out of my shop for likely obvious health reasons. I once heard an old saying, "as many ways to build a guitar as there are luthiers." It's great to hear people's experience and conjecture. Science would say all hide glue, as that's what conservationist would use in part as there are examples of the glue holding for over 3,000 years.

The point of the discussion was not to compare glues, but to discuss fish glue, its uses, and the experiences we have to date. Thanks to John, David, Arnt, and many others willing to share their experiences and ideas.

I would like to know more about prior use - I'm aware that fish glue has several thousand years of use, so we have a history that spans well beyond CA, AR, PVA, epoxy and others which we happily use on a frequent basis to make guitars. The question becomes a matter of what is specifically unique in joint and stress to a guitar, where those thousands of years of regular use don't inform us properly. How about lutes and violins - do we have experience with fish glue there or has it been avoided? This may be the second oldest glue known to man - it seems the topic is almost a matter of history rather than experimentation in scientific study.

I glued up linings with fish glue this morning - such a pleasant exercise - a luxury of high tack and plenty of open time. Okay back to finishing the lining on this guitar.

Andy

I don't believe there are centuries of documented experience from luthiers using fish glue, but rather its a newish experiment by guitar makers. Historically it seems the FG was used mainly by artist as a medium and for restoration and generally by others for pasting paper and non or lightly stressed wood joints. I do not see anything regarding use by old time furniture makers. Seems HHG was always the glue of choice prior to modern PVA.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

It is an interesting question. I have found references to luthiers making lute repair with sturgeon-based fish glue in the 1600's (Thomas Mace's writings in Musick's Monument). The Fellowship of Makers and Researchers of Historical Instruments makes a variety of references to fish-based glues for stringed instruments, going back several hundred years. I also found references to Italian lute makers using "colla di pesce" for lutes around the 14th century. That would make a lot of sense, especially in Italy where fish would be particularly common in the south. I looked up "colla", it means glue, and well enough of us have eaten at Italian restaurants to know what "pesce" means .

Below are some excerpts from the Fellowship of Makers and Researchers of Historical Instruments -it may tickle a slight curiosity. ... enjoy!

Andy

Glue used for lute making was either hide or fish glue or a combination of both - glues applied hot and reversible in their application. Fish glue is made from the swim bladders of fish (isinglass) or from fish skin and other scraps. The latter, is a relatively weak, cold setting liquid glue commonly used for gluing paper but generally unsuitable for instrument construction. ( fo Pliny the Elder in his "Naturalis Historiae" of 76 AD mentions both kinds of glue in Book 28, Chapter 71 and Book 32, Chapter 24. However, Pliny was uncertain about the origin offish glue (Ichthyocolla) stating that "some say it came from the skin of a fish while others say that it came from the belly of a fish". Cennino d'Andrea Cennini in his "II Libro dell' Arte" published in 14,h C Florence describes the use of both types of glue - that made from goat skins being good for making lutes and fish glue, made from various kinds offish, being good for mending lutes - although why one glue should be better than the other for the specified purpose is not made clear. As both glues were said to be
available in sheet or leaf form, the fish glue referred to was probably isinglass .

Thomas Mace is more specific and recommends for lute repairs, ".... some of the clearest and best made glue, together with isinglass (both which mixed together make the best glue)". However, Mace does not give the proportion of (hide?) glue to isinglass or explain why the mixture of glues was beneficial. Isinglass (4) is a clear fish glue made from the swim bladders of fish - the finest coming from Russian sturgeon although the swim bladders of other fish species such as Cod or Hake or freshwater fish like the Grayling were also used historically (see Comm. 1182 by Remy Gug). Isinglass is supplied dried, in sheet or leaf form. Isinglass is a pure form of gelatin but with a fibrous structure making it stronger and harder than hide glue. It also has superior bonding properties that may be the reason for its preferred past use in instrument repair. Reference to other early technologies may provide more information about the properties of isinglass glue. The superior strength of isinglass glue is evident in its past use by the early Asian bow makers. Their small but powerful reflex bows were of composite construction - layers of wood, horn and sinew held together with glue. The bowyers, according to the climate in which a bow was to be used, adjusted the proportions of glue and other materials of a bow. In cold damp environments, bows were made with a greater proportion of horn, a moderate amount of sinew and glue, and a small portion of wood. The anonymous author of a 16th

C treatise on the Arab bow states that "Others have recommended that in countries of excessive heat the sinew should be saturated with glue made from the best parchment, which is characteristically moist and, therefore, suitable for hot regions but not for those which are cold and humid". This implies that isinglass was preferred for bow making and could suggest that bow makers mixed the two types of glue in order to optimize glue properties for a given environment. Hungarian bowmaker Csaba Grozer, who makes replicas of early Asian bows, claims that isinglass is the best glue in the world for making this type of bow as it is very strong, does not become brittle with time and has an extended "open time" allowing the bowyer to saturate the layers of sinew filament in good time before the glue sets. One formula for a "Diamond Cement" appearing in the "Cyclopedia of Useful Arts", London & New York, 1854, is made by dissolving isinglass in dilute spirits of wine or common gin. The glue is used hot and alcohol added from time to time to make up for that lost due to evaporation. Charles Holzapffel in his "Turning and Mechanical Manipulation" Volume 1, 1843 gives the same formula for "Diamond Cement" saying that it is often used for attaching ivory to ivory or ivory to wood. He further confirms that common gin acts as a preservative, extending the shelf life of the glue, by stating "When isinglass is dissolved in water alone, it soon decomposes". (5)

Which begs the question - with Titebond, CA, and consumer epoxies all being introduced to general use in the 1950's or later, are centuries of use required for us to accept an adhesive as 'standard' or 'acceptable for use.' ?

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

I have made my last 7 guitars with fish glue primarily. Its great stuff. The "open time" thing seems to be a myth with the glue I have used from Lee Valley. It sets up really fast and is sticky. I love it.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

Tite bond wasn't made until the late 70's I think It was patented later the Elmers White which was around a while. I have not heard about salt but I did use urea to lengthen open time of HHG.
Yes Fish glue was used a long Time Lots longer than I was aware.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

John I think perhaps you transposed some historical information -- Franklin has been producing adhesives for over 70 years and on their website its states that Titebond Original was introduced in 1951.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Ok, at this point I find AndyB's research WAY more impressive than the glue!

WHO ARE YOU?!!! You rock! [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

I hope some University has made you a tenured professor with an endowed chair in glueology (musicology? Guitarology? Something?)


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I think Dave Collins really sums it up well in a different post -- for those wanting to use protein glues (not important for me) the current experience seems to be use HHG for heavy loads and FG for not so stressful. Do you think perhaps the historic evidence indicates that protein glues were used early on because that was all that was available? And likewise it may have been more convenient to make or acquire FG or HG depending on the location of the ancient work shop (see how cool Amazon is!).

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/