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Hi there,
A few Question for you guys.
I have a Yamaha fg-180 with pretty high action, too high.

Do I mess with the truss rod if so, how. And also when lowering the saddle I have to take it off the guitar so, it is a bad idea to loosen the stings enough to do this? Is it bad for the guitar?

Thanks!


Tyson k

Truss rod is for adjusting neck relief. The strings themselves make handy straight lines to check relief. Hold a string at the first fret and another fret around the body joint, and see how much gap there is between the string and frets around the middle of the neck. I'm not sure what kind of truss rod wrench you'll need for that guitar.

Loosening all the strings is a perfectly normal part of doing a setup, and won't hurt the guitar.

Thanks, just broke a sting loosening it (definitely loosening) probably time for new stings...


Tyson k

Is it ok to take them all off at the same time, I have heard it is bad just being extra carful


Tyson k

Yeah hear that all the time. It ain't true.
All the strings are removed for a set up, fret work, neck reset just to name a few that come to mind.

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Great thanks


Tyson k

You might want to do a little more research before you start.
Do a search for set up on this sight and you'll get a lot of advice.
There is more that one way to do it .

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Here's what I'd do.
set a straightedge on all the frets and see where the top of the frets hit the uta.
with that same straightedge,
you'll see how much relief the neck has.
You might have to lower the strings at the nut as well.
you can leave the saddle on the guitar when lowering the saddle,
put some poster board paper on the top so you don't damage it.
Good luck!
Setting up a guitar isn't easy!

Well I've got it done now. Along with an emergency string replace as they were breaking... The action is now lower after sanding the saddle down.


Tyson k

Tyson what vintage is the Yam? It very well may need a neck reset and if that is the case lowering the saddle is addressing the symptom and not the root cause of higher action.

You can tell if it's neck reset time by sighting down the neck and seeing where it looks like it intersects the bridge. The fret board and frets should meet the bridge top in a plane. If the neck and frets come in below the top of the bridge when sighting the thing it may need a neck reset.

Yeah I was worried about that thus I check and looks good. Surprisingly seeing as it's a 1969 model


Tyson k

Tyson, as Hesh pointed out there is a very good chance that the neck angle is bad - its normal for guitars that old to need a reset if they have very high action. There are basically two tests to confirm this - either lay a straightedge on the frets and see where the end is - ideally it will be right on top of the bridge (not saddle). If it is significantly lower, say an 1/8 of an inch or so, it needs a reset. The other test is IF the action is acceptable AND you have about I/8 inch of saddle sticking out of the bridge then it is acceptable - if either of those conditions fails then it probably isn't.

The problem with neck resets is they aren't trivial in any case and with old Yamahas they can be very difficult. Yamaha used dovetail joints back then but some of them don't come apart very easily. One of the possible ways to fix them is to saw the neck off flush with the body and convert the guitar to a bolt on.

I had to do that to my 1969 FG-150 and I documented it at another forum, including the test

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/for ... 2/1313642-

My suggestion to you is to set the relief as good as you can and check the neck angle. Go ahead and lower the saddle if it make the guitar playable (do not shave the bridge). Post some pictures here and we can help you decide on a course of action.

If you lower the saddle, get acceptable action, and the guitar still sounds good to you, don't worry about resetting the neck. When it gets to the point you are contemplating shaving the bridge down to correct the action then you should consider resetting the neck.

These days shaving bridges is not considered a best practice. There are exceptions such as an OEM bridge that is obviously too high, etc.

When lowering the saddle you will also be lessing the "break angle" where the strings break over the saddle. If there is not enough of a break angle the vibrating wave of a string will breach the saddle termination point and cause issues. With this said there is only so low that you can go with any acoustic saddle before the instrument starts losing first power and volume and later the ability to sound a clear note at all.

Many folks that we see daily are excited with the score that they just made often off eBay, etc. We have to be the ones to tell them at times that a neck reset is necessary and that the instrument will never play right without. We often do not want to do the work either because of our current work load so we are not trying to drum up business and usually, depending on work load, refer them elsewhere. This is not a fun position to have to be in with our clients but that's how it goes sometimes.

You may be able to get it to playable with simply lowering the saddle but the break angle issue may bite you too.

Good luck.

I have to ask a question of Tyson -- have you ever played a guitar adjusted by a pro set up specialist? No offense intended. As mentioned a couple of times -- I think that there is far more wrong with this 1969 guitar than a high saddle. I mention this because the difference between a playable guitar and one that is properly set up is night and day. I certainly never did 1000 set up a year like Hesh, but I can say, without exception the owners of the guitars I worked on were astonished at how much easier and more "enjoyable" their guitars were to play once the relief, frets, nut, and saddle were properly tweaked. And if your guitar needs a neck set that goes with out saying -- that's the starting point not the saddle. Post a picture from the side of the guitar laying on a table -- I bet Hesh can tell if it needs a set.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I'll post a picture in a few hours here. And Hesh I understand the position your in. It is a crappy one, I know this guitar needs a bit of work (a crack on the bridge through the pins etc) I am pretty sure it does not need a neck rest (at least I hope) but if it does I will cross that road... And btw this not a score off eBay. It was given to me so no investment money wise but it does have some sentimental value for sure. Thanks guys


Tyson k

I can just about guarantee that an old FG180 needs a neck reset. I seem to have evolved into specializing in these.

Yes, it's worth it.

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Ok so here are some pictures, the straight edge rocks on the frets as if there is a hump on the 15 fret. So I have a picture of the straight edge on each side of the hump.


Tyson k

Tyson k

I would need a picture of the guitar from the side including the neck and body -- full length at eye level to make any kind of assessment.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Tyson k

Thanks for the pic Tyson. What I do is straighten the neck with the truss rod so that the straight edge which needs to be around 24" long for decent results is not rocking back and forth on a hump in the neck. Then see where it come into the bridge at. We actually have a special tool for this that Dave made with a dial indicator on the business end so we can see to .001" what we have.

It looks like you have lots of saddle left which is a good thing and if once you straighten the neck and if you are using a true straight edge that is long enough and it looks like your pics above you do not need a neck reset. OTOH if after you do as I am suggesting here the straight edge comes in below the top of the bridge and of course the instrument has frets on it making the real intersection point at the bridge likely around .040" lower than in the pic the instrument may need a neck reset.

For marginal instruments where a neck reset is unavoidable at some point and it's already on the way there there are things that we can do to stay on budget and make a client happy provided that it's "appropriate for the instrument." This appropriate for the instrument thing is important in our biz and deals with the idea that some fixes that we might do on a FG 180 or an OLD Harmony might not be appropriate to something that's a more heirloom quality instrument such as say a 50's Martin.

Here are some ideas on how an instrument that's marginal for a neck reset may be able to be set-up without the neck reset:

1) Lowering the saddle
2) In conjunction with "1" above mill string ramps into the bridge to increase break angle over a low saddle.
3) Shave the bridge... Again these days it's frowned upon to some extent just like sawing off the fret board at the body joint is also frowned upon these days. However again with the a keen eye and the appropriate for the instrument thing this one could be a candidate for a shaved bridge provided that it's not valuable, likely has other issues, you are the owner and agree, and you know in advance that to reverse this in time the bridge will have to be replaced with a new shop-made bridge if the neck is ever reset.
4) This is one of my favorites. If the thing needs a fret dress with divots in the hopefully the cowboy chord first three fret area doing a fret dress that concentrates most material removal in the first three fret area will effectively change the neck angle back to a small degree. This in conjunction with lowering the saddle, string ramps, and maybe 12's so that the proper action spec is lower and if the action is still at all high you don't have to be a gorilla to fret the thing as one might with 13's and very high action.
5) Nut slots and here I go again like a broken record, you guys do remember records don't ya... the nut slots although not intended to be used to lower action may be high like most nut slots often are and cutting them down can have a positive impact on the playability of the thing too.

Your situation is different from ours in that we run a commercial shop and the value provided HAS to be worth at least the price charged and paid. You can do this as a labor of love or a learning mule but for us the value has to be there or it won't make sense to the client or us by the way. One of the best ways to increase one's exposure in business is to not clearly provide measurable value that all concerned agree is to a degree that makes it worth while.

It's unlikely that we would have a client who would want to invest north of $600 to reset a neck on one of these and we might not do it either depending on our read of the client, our work load, and the opportunity costs that a longer term project such as this would require. But again for you none of these things are stopping you so have fun.

Take it to a local, reputable guitar shop. Get an estimate. Then tell us. It shouldn't be all that bad, assuming it's not a neck reset or a belly bulge behind bridge.

Well I did talk to a guy, he said that he charges on average 150-250 for a neck reset but that it depends on the guitar. This guy is very reputable from the looks of things.


Tyson k

http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/actions.htm

Make some string height measurements (feeler gauges)

It is normal to assume that a saddle adjustment will fix the problem, but you should ask why this has happened. If neck rest is in order, then is guitar worth it to you? ($200)

Seems a bit low for a neck reset.