Official Luthiers Forum!

I think that is the one Alan.

I can not see ASIA as an organization being able to set standards that easily, let alone lobbying the fed to make them official, since it is not like an organization of overpaid lawyers, but underpaid luthiers, and there is a big difference in resources, and time one can commit!

Hell, I went to the ASIA site yesterday after reading one of your posts, and would love the "lifetime membership" and contribute, but the $500 is more than I can cough up. I am still lacking necessary funds for all kinds of stuff more pertinent to furthering my career as luthier, like tools... and as you know people will pay a locksmith $150, to change a door handle with a direct replacement you can get at any hardware store for $15, and needs only 10 minutes and a phillips screwdriver to install, but how dare a luthier charge $40 - $60 for a nut job, that requires much more skill, a few processes, the material and sometimes as much as 3 hours of work depending on circumstances, let alone complain that you did not throw in a fret job!

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

ASIA always sounded like a terrorist group name to me, ASIS.....

Sorry.... my mind really works like that....

At Ann Arbor Guitars we decided that when the switch gets flipped on, this means we write up a repair order and the clock starts ticking and the overhead comes into play it has to be worth our while to do the work or we will not live to play another day.

Bob you provide REAL value I am sure and as such are entitled to charge appropriately regardless of what the hack infested music stores and G*itar C*nters charge. Consider not publishing a price list if you do publish one and also not subscribing to anyone else's pricing either.

By the way it can take me 1 - 3 hours to do a great nut too depending on circumstances so perhaps nuts should not be viewed as a simple nut? That was our approach and we recognized that the nut is key to the set-up so some of a set-up has to be performed to even make the nut, adjusting relief, cutting the slots low enough for player comfort, etc.

You can no longer get a nut made at Ann Arbor Guitars and instead will receive a "custom made" nut AND a "precision set-up" and new strings for around $140. We've never had any push-back over this and it also takes into account that Mr. and Mrs. Customer may think that all they need is a nut but the real value to them would surely be if the instrument was also returned completely and properly set-up and ready to rock or what ever.

It's a balance of being true to yourself, paying the bills, being mindful of the market and what it will bear but also believing in your own value proposition and positioning yourself for the idea that your value proposition is superior to others. I'll add that we have to make all of this so too meaning we have to deliver that superior value too, always!

In my experience many folks only visit a real.... Luthier maybe once or twice in a lifetime. They do not know for sure what to expect or even what things might cost to have done. Earn the trusted advisor role with your clients as I am sure you already do and they will see differences in pricing between the hacks and the real deal Luthiers as mouse nuts and gladly pay what you decide your skills and time are worth.

I closed one repair business 37 miles from the city of Ann Arbor when we opened A2G. My previous pricing was around half of what we charge now. I grandfathered my existing clients in for the first year at my old prices or some heavy discount. After that year was up it was our current pricing and no one has ever complained either, they just keep on coming to us.

Bob you are the very best judge of the value that you provide and if you are not fair to yourself how can we expect anyone to be fair to us my friend? Believe in what you do and the value that you provide and price accordingly and you will be fine.

There is a real shortage of skilled Luthiers out here and most folks won't bat an eye at what some of these things have to cost with overhead, etc.

Nobody said ANYTHING about getting the gubmint involved, OK?
Many organizations set standards without lobbying Washington.
Getting DC involved would mean a lowering of standards the way they work.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Got it. Straight walled and round bottom = good. Anything else = bad. Can't agree more about japanese made tools. I'll check out LMI. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I had my website for a while. The domain is still mine but I quit maintaining it after being unable to attract a client of any kind in Austin. Those I do get ended up being expats in Taiwan that I'm unable yo help due to location, so it looks like I may need to start fresh

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I just fixed my website (paid the past due bills), though I still need some time to fix the weird page. I don't know what happened but I'm unable to access the control panel for now, I will try again when I am at home. The password reset for some reason don't work...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I learned a lot from this thread. Thank you! Setup on #4 coco was awesome. I used folded 600 Emory to adjust B and high E slots for great results. And waxed dental floss to clean and lube. I also used the gradual ramp. First string up was amazing.

What #4 are you referring to, and which Coco; Chanell or Taylor???

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

"Luthier is a real profession not just a job, it just lacks a term for the hobbyist version thereof, and there are a few posts in this thread and this forum, on the subject about the differences of those who should and those who shouldn't call themselves luthiers. I don't know where you fit in there, but it is up to you to be honest with yourself on that one."

Actually there is a term for the hobbyist stringed instrument maker - Amateur Luthier. Having built a couple of hundred instruments over the past 40 years, but never having worked professionally at it I have no problem with that term. On the other hand, those that primarily repair and adjust guitars, but build few instruments, often refer to themselves as guitar technicians or guitar repairmen.

What's in a name? that which we call a rosewood
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So luthier would, were he not luthier call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. luthier, doff thy name!

I'm chuckling because this can be a case of be careful what you wish for.....

Call yourself a Luthier and a large percentage of people will have no idea what that means. Some may think it's a satanic cult of sorts worshiping Lucifer..... Others may see it as political party.... And still others may think that you are a Dentist.... long story..... not for here....

Anyway the point is if one is chomping at the bit to be entitled to call themselves Luthier when you do be ready for a lot of what? What did you say you are? Do you fix violins too?

So what do you call someone who willingly works for less than we would hope for, has to deal with the ups and downs of the unpredictable business world...., is completely relying on the disposable income of others and the economy in general so that there is disposable income? What do you call someone who often has to chase something that's not even real and likely compensation from someone else for being a lousy player? What do you call someone who willingly positions themselves right smack in the path of an Ov*tion.......? What do you call someone who deliberately makes an informed.... choice to have to tell some snot-nosed brat that tuning to low C is likely why their instrument rattles like a 1970 AMC Pacer....?

Stupid?

Or my preference..... Luthier!

Be careful what you wish for.......

Oh yeah - there is a romantic.... attraction for some to adding an additional career to their CV. I call this the "dreamer Luthier" which is often called the gentlemen/woman Luthier. No harm done right? Right. To each their own.

For me though a Luthier is someone who you can throw any manner of maladies within a specific family of instruments be they plucked or bowed at, which ever that Luthier specializes in and they will know how to make the instrument whole again. At times the person too.... They won't need a forum, others, etc. just that endless toiling by candlelight with sharp Blue Spruce in hand..... Kind of hard adjusting intonation on a 2011 Les Paul with that chisel too I'll add.....

Reality: Call yourselves what you wish and my only request is if you do call yourself a Luthier please be a credit to the designation and do great work.

By definition luthier is a person that works on or makes stringed instruments -- in the USA at least it has no more suggestion of expertise than say "musician." In this craft I believe quality of your work defines the skill level. An observation is that my spell checkers do not even recognized -- "luthier"

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I call myself a luthier (<observe the spell checkers red underline) for a few reasons:

1. I have worked as a technician on the road, and it does not cover in depth repairs, as you don't have the facilities, nor the time for it, and your employer can most likely afford a brand new guitar at least once a month, and manufacturers hand them free ones all the time. And I also got badly burned by my employer despite my excellent service, which makes the term hard to utter.

2. It's one word rather than "Guitar repair person who is trying to get his shop up to snuff against all odds, to finish building the ones he started".

3. It does sound romantic, and conveys a sense of being more than just a mere repair guy.

4. I was baptised a Lutheran. (for you Hesh)

5. It's true definition is a broad term from a time before specialization was "In", and there would probably be Violiniers too, if it were easier to pronounce.

6. Although "Amateur" does not rule out great skill and knowledge, it has a bad rap non the less.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Around here most people assume that a 'luthier' is primarily a repairman; the folks who build usually call themselves 'guitar makers' or whatever. I make all sorts of stringed instruments, so 'luthier' is the short term that covers the water front. I also try to avoid doing repairs, since it cuts into my building time, but since I call myself a luthier I get calls all the time about repairs.

Guitar Builder ===================> Soon to be repair person too, they often just don't know it yet...

Bread and butter can be desirable for some, not all, but for some including me.

Bob's being modest too, Google him and then meet a guy with a LOT of experience, famous clients, etc! Sorry if I am embarrassing you, Bob, you have some great chops and I just want folks to know this.

Personally I've never cared what I'm called..... just pay your bill!!!!

I second that. I am mainly a repair man for now, but I have built before, and am doing my best to finish the ones I have started, but am having a hard time finding the time. I have mostly great clients that are good people, and although I do not want to let them down, I will drop repairs in a heart beat if I can pay the bills as a builder, it is so much more rewarding.

I thought that if I do drop the repair side, I should at least point my clients to someone else, but I got most of my clients, because there is no one with my standards anywhere near here, only the same hacks, that drove people to me in the first place. It was really hard at first to convince some of them that I am not like the guy at Gutter Center who has no actual shop, and just does setups on a counter on the sales floor and can't do frets, but can sell guitars like nobody's business, or the others that charge people to try out the skills they just acquired from YouTube... or the same forum some guy asked this, and actually got a few answers: "What type of bondo is best to use in refinishing a Gibson SG"

THANKS HESH

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

As the OP, I feel like I should jump in here and thank you all for the help. I've learned a lot. Maybe we can steer this back to the original subject? David Collins, those photos were awesome! I'm betting a lot of folks are learning a great deal here.

Sorry for going so far off topic, but when it comes to nut jobs, well you found one! Me.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Hey there are plenty of jokes for brass nuts too

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

On my last setup, I used the files to scrape the sides as Hesh suggested. I used the ramp to level technique. I kept the strings under tension as I worked the final depth. Right before that step I set the relief. I sanded the slots with 600 and 1000 grit Emory. Flossed them with waxed floss. Worked like a charm. I am very interested in Bob's theory of what causes sitar effect.

Good stuff.

Sanding the slots with fine sandpaper is not something I do. The surface that comes off the file is sufficient. A little bit of friction does't hurt anything unless you are an into string bending. It is not like the string needs to slide through the nut at high speed.

I'm not Bob, but the sitar sound is caused by the string not having sufficient downward pressure against the leading edge of the nut slot. And this is caused by a flat or slight downward slope of the bottom of the slot at the leading edge. It is really that simple. Here is an actual sitar bridge which shows an exagerated downward slant to the leading edge. The tiny open gap allows the string vibrations to rattle against the bridge causing the buzz.

What Barry said!

There are two things in combination that interplay and that is the downward pressure and the angle. With this said with more of either you can get by with less of the other and vice versa.

In a nut shell though it's usually a nut slot that is not angled enough so the vibrating wave of the string won't properly terminate at the nut face but travels into the nut slot and that sitar sound is the result.

Mike very glad that some of this is helping. As others have said you should be able to file the slot to optimal depth and call it a day. No attempts at polishing the slot are necessary and they can often do more harm than good. I've read on this forum the idea of using a string or abrasive cord to "floss" the slot and that's totally unnecessary too and in the wrong hands can remove the break angle on the nut slot face and also result in the sitar sound.

With files only we should be capable of cutting a slot that won't bind and has a decent break angle, etc.

You're getting there and again I struggled with nut slots too until I started to get the picture about break angles, how to use my files, etc.

Cutting the nut slots nice and low is one of the very most beneficial things that we can do for our clients AND something that they notice at once when they try the thing out. It can also deal with some intonation problems, eliminate the need for any nut compensation if that's your bag, and help our customers be more successful with their playing. To me that's a lot of very good stuff!

Barry, thanks. Very useful depiction. What causes the dead sound?

Side note: how is the sitar effect produced when string is fretted (on a sitar)?

The sitar is on the bridge so it doesn't matter if the notes are fretted.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Got it. I thought it was the nut

Well first let me say that "theory", "principle" and "fact" are often used interchangeably. So for clarity, the topic may as well be renamed from "Nut Theory" to "Nut Fact", because factually some theories are wrong, and we in fact want to get rid of the sitar effect at the nut, not just theoretically, so must stay within scientific principals to make that happen!

From what I can tell it has been covered already, but to sum it up and be more accurate scientifically but concise, the factual cause of the sitar effect is:

Any obstruction in a strings path between any two termination points that contacts the string with less force than is needed for it to ring true.

The above also covers the fact that it can occur anywhere and not just at the nut. Sloppy playing, improperly groomed fingernails, damaged or high individual frets, strings that have partially come unwound (Actual string windings not at the tuner) and then some, may be the source of the sitar effect.

As for the cure at the nut, the most important part of this thread:

I think great factual remedies, based on varying theories have been presented, and as long as a non obstructive termination point has been established, the sitar effect is gone!

As for the ramping, tapering, best files, need for lubrication... it begs to answer: What is best? That is not that easy to summarise, because the nut material, neck angle, string type and material are also factors, as well as personal preferences. So it can be confusing to sort it all out when one person says more ramp and another says less, because it has to do with neck angle, nut material and the string within that slot, and I could go on all day and write a 20 page essay on it. Sometimes it helps to read exactly what a person writes (Without interpretation), and thinking hard if it can be right, and then if it makes perfect sense, how it applies to your situation.

Sometimes there is no one answer: A Nut made of plastic (Cheese nut) will need less ramp with steel strings, unless you want it to wear down fast and fail. A Bone nut can come from different creatures, and vary in density not only based on the animal, but can have softer/harder spots within. A flat ramp with a wide angle, leaving a tiny, pointy termination point, will wear faster and wound strings can catch on them....

To the guy who originally wrote this post, in answering how he should alter the slot to prevent the sitar effect, and considering he was not complaining about tuning or binding issues: Increase the angle of the slot.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!