Official Luthiers Forum!

For string spacing get that 20 dollar Stewmac string spacing rule... Takes the guesswork out of that

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

That thing is guess work, and not what it is chalked up to be. If you see how it works and understand the math and concept of proportional string spacing, then you should be able to tell that it can not actually be accurate because it does not consider the actual string gauges. The slots in it are wider than most scribes, and pencil marks are inaccurate too, and once you start filing your reference is gone, and you are flying by sight which is close to blind for real accuracy.

Check a nut you have cut that way with dial callipers. Measure between each pair of strings and write them down. They should all be the same IE .257 give or take .oo3, but they are not are they?

Instead of paying $25.95 for the rule, which is a one trick horse, buy a set of dial or digital callipers above $45, less and they may be crap. You now have a tool that will come in handy for all kinds of measurements. Read up on how to use them right, don't assume you know what you are doing! They need calibration, you can hold them wrong, a speck of dust and extreme temperatures can throw them off, and never use it as a hammer, bottle opener or anything else it is not made for, as it's precision can not be trusted once abused! Keep it away from children and cats that like to knock stuff off of your work bench... Get your cat a mini keyboard instead!

The math is rather simple, and works for any instrument, including where custom string gauges are in use for alternate tunings and where the outer two strings are to close to the edge of the fingerboard, which is more of a bridge problem. You should have the slots for both outer strings set or even better; done. Measure between the two outer strings lets say you get 1.589 on a six string. Now add up the gauges of the four strings in between them .o16 + .024 + .036 + .048 = 0.124. Now subtract that from the string spread: 1.589 - 0.124 = 1.465, divide it by 5 because there are 5 spaces between 6 strings : 1.46/5 = 0.293, dial your calliper to 0.293 and lock it down, because that is the space between any two strings.

Callipers can measure between two strings with the inside measurement prongs, and if you rest them both on the fingerboard up against the nut it is spot on every time. That is also how you make your mark, with it up against string 1 and 6 you can draw lines straight up the nut, and using a square continue them across the top, then cut notches so that the edge of the string penetrates through the line but not past the lines edge in the direction of the adjacent string, measure and adjust the notch until the callipers touch both strings.

Repeat the same using strings 2 & 5 as guides and notch for strings 3 & 4. Now you can file the remaining 4 slots close to finished, but check often and adjust them on your way down, the calliper should have no wiggle room nor be snug, and wound strings have low spots between the windings, so rock the callipers back and fro gently as you check them to get their edges.

If there is a slight error in your math or the calliper setting, and the measurement between all pairs of strings are either to loose or to snug, you can always unlock the callipers and measure between all pairs, add them together and divide by 5 again to average them out, lock the callipers to the adjusted width, and adjust your final few strokes.

The StuMac rule has to be held above the strings, and you must rely on your sight and inaccuracies due to light, shadow and illusions thereof to get it right, and the deeper the slot the more off. In fact the StuMac rule is the one that needs the guess work because it can not make a true measurement.

I made some spreadsheets for string spacing, and fill in the blanks and it computes the spacing between the strings edge to edge (same idea as the SM rule but right), I set the dial calliper, lock it down and go to town.

As I said I have some spreadsheets for it like "4 courses 8 strings", "4 strings", "6 courses 12 strings", "7 strings"... If I knew more about the math input methods and boolean strings (programming not guitar) and values, I could make a universal spreadsheet that works for any instrument, no matter how many courses of any number of strings, with inch or metric input and automatic conversion, but so far I have failed at that, and am having a hard time making the program do acrobatics. If anyone knows their way around with LibreOffice Calc, (Almost identical to M$Office's spreadsheet program without being spyware) it would be a well worth while project.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Reviewed my post, and realized I had left out some stuff....
I also use 3 different width razor saw blades for plain strings.... One .011, one .015, and one .022. Very useful on electric string sets.

Also, on my last paragraph - I STILL stand by my statement - all things being equal. We all have to have our crap together on the fingerboard, but even if the frets are wonderful - a bad nut won't do it justice.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Not to highjack the thread but I'm nearly 60... and suffer from chronic kidney stones and BPE, benign prostate enlargement....

I'm interested in this term "renutted" and am wondering if I should ask my urologist about the procedure and if my health insurance will cover it.....

Back to our regularly scheduled nut thread....

Bob you would enjoy taking to David Collins about his multi-year fret spacing study where he has developed a database of guitars, many vintage, and their fret spacing. He uses long calipers and like you has written spread sheets to evaluate the data and compare results. Currently he has hundreds of measured instruments in the database and what is very useful about all of this is learning about and "seeing" with graphs how fret slot position was determined over the years by the various makers.

From this data you can also glean a "digital fingerprint" of sorts using the fret spacing to even verify the authenticity of a valuable, vintage instrument.

The various methods the makers used, the rule of 18 etc. all come into play here as well and the study can even give guidance as to when a maker changed gang saw blades....

Maybe we can get Dave to post or link to a prior post about his fret spacing study and you guys can compare notes.

Bob, I have to disagree with you on the Stew-Mac string spacing tool. I know very well how to do the job with calipers because that was the only way to do it right before the spacer tool came out. But the spacer is very close to what you get with caliper if you know how to use it. String diameters do not really need to be taken into consideration because you can make the simplifying assumption that there is an even gradient between string sets. If you add an extra 0.010" between the strings as you go from the high e to the low E then you will get very near the spacing that you will get when you do the math with the specific string diameters factored in. The difference between these two methods will never be more than 2 or 3 thousandths of an inch which is not really worth worrying about. And this is how the Stew-Mac tool works. If you don't believe me do the math on several sets of string and see what you get.

Regarding the scribing issue. Find a pointed tool that fills the marking slot so there is no slop, but it extends from the other side of the slot just enough to mark the nut. Don't use a pencil because that introduces visual errors. Scribe a mark directly on top of the nut to mark the string location. Then when you start filing the file will fit into the scribe mark eliminating error.

The benefit of the tool is that it turns a fussy, time consuming job into a quick and accurate operation.

I had time when the spacing rule made an uneven nut, but it was mostly my fault, and "pencil line" accuracy. When used properly though it can very quickly establish the correct spacing. Before that I used the caliper method and it took forever.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

The tool existed when I started making nuts so I've always used it except the rare occasion when someone wants the alternative spacing that Bob cited. The spacing tool is very useful to me but I also believe it to be a bit of a crutch in my use of it.

Why?

Even though I am religious about using a very fine lead and even sharpening it on 220 paper before every mark the visual indicators can be off because of lead thickness and user error. Next the initial cuts that I make are often with a file stiff enough to not flex and new enough to cut easily, often a .016 or .020 nut file. Files wander and so does my attention span...

When I read Bob's earlier description of how he uses his files I was grinning like the idiot that I am because I'm thrilled to have another forum member who does the same things that we do and seemingly often in the same way too. Bob talked about the files wandering and "teasing" them where you want them to go. I can completely relate and he said all the right things down to the finest details of my own personal experience cutting nut slots and using these tools.

Anyway back to the spacing rule. I rely on it too much and it's not uncommon for me to check and recheck every single slot as I "tease" the files where I want them to go. I would suspect that I pick-up the spacing rule 30+ times to make a nut and that's just way too inefficient. What would help me is to have more faith in my own visual interpretations of things and be less of a wussy relying on the spacing rule as often as I do. That's one of my goals for 2016 by the way, to become more "intuitive" and lessen my reliance on extraneous tools, tuners, etc.

Although a poor comparison in golf there is such a thing as the "touch..." It can be developed for some and others perhaps not so much. IME with many of the Lutherie tasks that we do there is also the opportunity to have or learn through experience that "touch" thing. Fret dressing is one area that I currently feel as if I have some of the touch ability but I would love to get better with nut making as well.

The spacing rule is a great tool especially for new builders and nut makers. But in my experience it can become a bit of a crutch too making it easy for one to never learn to trust their own intuitive instances and the power of our own visual accuracy to determine differences between what we see.

I've only used my calipers for bridge pin hole spacing but will have to try that and hopefully get more comfortable with trusting my skill set and instincts.

Bob"s description mentions marking the front of the nut. This is an important detail to me. I have never understood marking the top. The marks on the face are there until the very end when the nut gets buffed and glued. You can make your marks and then put the tool away. No matter how accurate your lines, they at least remain visible instead of being wiped out on the first file stroke..

In my eye's:

Just because this is a "Luthier's Forum" No one checked my credentials first before allowing me to participate. I have to correct many of my clients on why the "Luthier" who messed up their guitar is not even worthy of being a mere technician.

An ASE certified mechanic is accredited based on some fairly strict criteria, I have a West-German degree as an Industrial electrician, and had to prove my understanding and skills to graduate, had I not and called myself one, done business and even succeeded, I could have still gone to jail for it. There is no such thing for Luthier's here in the States.

A long time ago I was toying with the Idea of attending the Guild of American Luthiers school, and how the hell I was going to pay for it, as my degree is not recognized here despite the fact that the American equivalent was a high school diploma in comparison. When I found out that after building one classical and one steel stringed acoustic guitar (no electrics or basses), with no mention of weather they had to meet any standards what so ever, and after having to pay hefty for the education, I would get a framed document that looks similar to the one you see on a surgeons office, that states "Course Completed" as its only reference of merit, I decided to hunker down and teach myself.

That being said, I can only assume that most of us on this forum have no credentials that are officially recognized, and trustworthy. The quality of work is what sets us apart, and word of mouth our credentials. Many of my clients that had been burned by "Luthiers" started calling me a master, but I did not call myself a "Master Luthier" (There really is no such thing) until ~16 years ago, when someone well known in the field with world recognition, who was amazed at a guitar I had built (my First) told me I should, and to take credit for my achievements. That person was Grover Jackson.

Both in school in Germany and in teaching myself, I followed the same method of learning how to do things by hand the hard and meticulous way first to gain a better feeling for the task, and understanding the subject matter in depth, before trying to conquer tasks that are more than they seem. Once you get things down, which may take years for some and only days for others, and only then, is it time to try the easy way of doing the same things. Often times, the easy way is not the best way, just easier.

The truth is, that I can "eye" all kinds of stuff and do it more often than I would let on, as Hesh said so eloquently: I have acquired "The Touch". Not with everything, but almost everything I have to deal with in my shop, including building the shop tools, fixtures and jigs by hand.

I also don't want to perpetuate the politically correct but completely false belief that you can become anything if you put your heart to it, as that is a let down waiting to happen. I find it better to pick something to your liking that you actually can handle, both within your mental ability and limits, as well as within the range of your physical capability. I just happen to be blessed with technical understanding, fine motor skill and control, and artistic prowess. I would not dare pursue a career as an athlete, historian, chemist...

I have yet to build one classical and one steel string guitar from start to finish, but who would I be kidding? I do not hate classical, folk and bluegrass, but I am a long haired freaked out nonconformist by heart, and primarily into the heavier side of progressive rock. I would rather punch Andres Segovia in the face , and make him eat a "Super Strat", than say one bad thing about Jimi Hendrix!

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

I'm under the impression that in Germany everything (and I mean everything, even flipping burgers) requires job specific license and certification. So while in the US people might work at Walmart as a job to get by (while attending school or whatnot) seems in Germany you actually need certification to work at a supermarket. In the US this is only true for a few highly specialized work such as medicine. Problem is in Germany career mobility is rare... you spent your whole life training as something but you suddenly decided you wanted to do something else (perhaps you studied Engineering your whole life but want to do art), well you got to re-educate yourself and get the proper certificates, that takes years, so in practice few in Germany change their career. In the US it is very common for people to change careers.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

It's a good thing you didn't go, since there's not one.

I've been a member of the GAL for 20 years and just don't want people to get the wrong impression of what it is.
It's much like this forum, an organization that was set up to share ideas and techniques. They also throw a rather large, fun and informative gathering every other year along with a quarterly publication written by members
No requirements to join.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Jim Watts: This was more like 30 years ago, and so I may be wrong on which organization, but it was a well known one with high acclaim. And GAL still offers courses as far as I have read just recently.

Tai Fu,

Back then when I went to school there, a "cleaning lady" had to take classes in chemistry and other related stuff, and cleaning supplies prep can be dangerous in all reality, just like food preparation, so it makes sense to have at least the necessary education to a degree. In those days the Germans did take it over the top though, but have meanwhile lessened restrictions significantly. One of my friends there who has a bookkeeping degree repairs cars now which he loves and is into. Instead of needing years of schooling... he only had to prove that he can deal with major safety equipment like breaks.

The strange thing here is, that a cleaning lady when working in public buildings and professional settings still needs no education what so ever, and gets the title of "Environmental service engineer" but still no one seems to care weather she knows not to mix ammonia with bleach therefore making hydrochloric acid, potentially killing herself, and others!

Here it is harder to get a job as an alarm installer with a related, much higher but foreign degree, than it is to become a mathematics teacher with a degree in art history, go figure! So if you are wondering why you can now get a much better education in Zimbabwe, it's because that crap won't fly there!

Our government and school boards have absolutely no intentions on subject based education any more, and through common core: a re-education program funded by huge for profit corporations and owned by another non education based corporation's conceptual lifestyle organization, headed by terrorist bomber Bill Aires, and other known socialist subversives. The goal has become to make everyone get along without conflict, and become all tolerant drones without will, in order to ease a corporate controlled government into place (already 80% there) that will make the decisions for us, in order to create a utopian work force society that has nothing to worry about any more, and therefore has no reason for uprising.

Happy New Year everyone!!

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

So if a young man in Germany starting out and of course is working on training for a job, then what job does he do that requires no certification so he can still pay bills while he's working on that certification? Same could be said for immigrants... I mean in the US there's Walmart, McDonalds, etc. that doesn't pay highly but requires no skill or qualification, and that's a stepping stone for most youngsters while they study for more advanced (and higher paid) qualifications.

If a person doesn't know they can't mix bleach with ammonia, then they probably have other issues because it says clearly on the bottle of both products not to do this. Requiring a certificate to be a janitor seems absurd. It's almost like giving out trophies for finishing second grade... makes you feel special but is in reality not really all that special. In the US certifications are only for jobs that pay a lot, and are complicated enough that you really need special knowledge and training to do them to acceptable standards.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

When ASIA was formed, one of things we talked about was setting standards for luthiers... as a service for clients to know what skills and abilities we possessed.
Ken Donnell described it as similar to the PGA - professionals would help the amateurs with their skills, and welcome them to the "big leagues" once a certain level was achieved.
Unfortunately, this part of the organization never even left the drawing board.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

As a rule, although certification is required for way more stuff in Germany than here, they are often easily acquired and cost free, and just a matter of a few classes over a few days, with a test at the end. There are plenty of jobs one can get that have no official requirements what so ever, but in reality I have never heard of any occupation that has no requirements at all. Even if your job is to stand in one spot, and wait for a bell to ring, and then opening a gate. The requirements would be standing for a minimum amount of time, good enough hearing to recognize the bell...

German certifications have actual reasons other than keeping the scum out of the field and money, they would rather teach and make sure that safety concerns are known and adhered to, and that proper etiquette is followed when dealing with other humans. Here there are so many safety stickers on chemicals, drugs, tools machinery, the roads... that it has the adverse affect of distraction! I ignore many warning labels, because I am smart enough to expect a power tool to be able to cause major trauma. No amount of warning, can overcome ignorance, misplaced confidence, or just plain stupidity.


I had a "paid apprenticeship", it was not an actual wage, but just enough to live in a dormitory, buy food and bare essentials. I worked at a tree nursery/landscaper with greenhouses, and did menial labour. My favourite things were to feed the Venus fly trap's, and pick fruit and devour some while at it. It was not frowned upon as long as you put the good looking stuff in the basket, and didn't pig out!

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

ASIA?!? Just one minute, aren't you the ones making "Chibson's"???

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

I thought ASIA was a group of Chinese companies making knockoff guitars..

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

you are joking right

http://asiartisans.org/content/

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Bob when you enter our shop you climb a stairway (no pun intended....) and are immediately met by a famous picture that Linda McCarthy RIP took of Jimi Hendrix riding in the back seat of the McCarthy's car!!!!

My man cave, home shop has a large print of Jimi doing a power chord with a white strat..... When I want to get back to work and some client is lingering.... with mouth open scanning the walls of our shop with all the wood and forms and molds and I want them to leave I often start playing a rather annoying version of Purple Haze.....

Great post and you are correct any hack who can spell the word "Luthier" is seemingly entitled in the US to call themselves a Luthier. No education, experience, references, body of work required. If you imagine that you are one you are one.....

Not exactly a good thing in my view and likely countless folks who have had their personal instruments hacked up might agree as well.

On the other hand what's very much wrong with our trade is also an opportunity for those who have worked for and earned credentials of sorts over time. If you can demonstrate Lutherie prowess, have a track record of happy clients, have earned.... a loyal following of repeat clients you're gold to many folks who are aware of the existence of hack Luthiers.....sadly.....

I think there is a perspective as well that can be helpful. I view clients as the ones who bring me my real customers..... the instruments. I work for the instruments first and the human bags of mostly water (Star Trek reference, Veger) are simply the ones tasked with paying the bill once the instrument is happy as a clam.... Perhaps an over romanticized view of the transactional process but it works for me....

In my view and because there is nothing that can be done to tighten up the definition of a Luthier, for now.... in the US it's an opportunity for those who can walk the walk and not just talk the talk. Do great work, set expectations correctly, be fair and honest, and in my view view the instruments as the number one client and things tend to work out very well.

Interestingly I never called myself a Luthier either until people who clearly were Luthiers started calling me that first. I feel the same way about the Master thing, if it ever happens for me I will only believe it when folks who clearly are Master Luthiers consider and call me one too. Kind of an old world way of determining eligibility of sorts.... but you are very correct there is NO objective criteria in the states for what we are and what we do.

First off - thanks to everyone on this forum for so willingly sharing your years of experience. There have been plenty of books written on lutherie but, understandably, each suffers somewhat from the authors bias. There is no substitute for the free exchange of ideas between experts that I routinely find on these pages. I am not a luthier, but I would like to be able to work on my own guitars and I am slowly acquiring the tools of the trade. I have a very simple question and I was hoping that someone here could offer an opinion. Nut slotting files - Stewmac sells 2 types - ultimately the cost is the same. I noticed that the profiles are different with the single gauge being straight and the double sided having a taper. Perhaps there is no practical difference between the two but the ones I buy will probably last me forever so before proceed I thought I'd see if anyone currently using these found one to be better than the other for any particular reason. Thanks again and happy new year!

First of all I don't understand why so many people start at StuMac, the prices may be lower, but so are their standards on product. Others charge more, but have better products. My starting point is normally LMI, why? They weed out the crap for you, and will discontinue a product swiftly if it gets to many justified bad reviews.

In all of my years I have had and used all kinds, and the Knife edge ones are my least favorite : Last time I used them, (not mine, in a shop I was helping out) they seemed to have uneven edges, and are harder to control because they are large, heavy, and cut on the sides, which you only want in rare cases.

I had a set of the other ones from StuMac, and they were OK , but wore out rather quickly n harder materials, and did not leave a smooth enough finish for my taste, nor a clean radius at the bottom of the slot.

I have to recommend the ones that LMI sells : They are made in japan, cut hard materials like butter, and still leave a smooth finish. They have rounded blades and leave rounded slot bottoms. I have not had them long enough to be sure about their wear, but have made several nuts with them, some brass, and I have had no problems. They do come with a warning: Japanese hardened steel as thin as the .010" to .017" files can snap and break if you do not use restraint and control, but for the same reason will teach it!

If the "Made in Japan " thing scares you: it is not the same thing as "Made in China ". The Japanese are well known for some of the best woodworking and hand tools available, their pull saws are out of this world, their chisels without compare, and you have already heard about their swords, These files rock! Also: You get what you pay for!

On the other hand, a good luthier will do the job for around the same price as a few files, and he won't be laying around your house uselessly until needed again, which should be very rarely.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

I heard bad things about the double sided nut file, the taper cuts a V slot which causes binding. I have their gauged nut file and they work well enough. If LMI sold them separately like Stewmac I would have gotten some, because I buy ones I need rather than a set.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Iirc, ASIA tried several times to set up some sort of certification standards, and could not get the membership to pass them.

Keep in mind that the main reason that C.F.Martin is based in Pennsylvania rather Germany is that the local violin makers guild wanted him to pass their exam when he'd already trained as a guitar maker and didn't want to make violins.

I have to wonder if players can actually feel the difference between strings that are uniformly spaced on center, strings that have uniform gaps in between, and strings that are spaced out using a Stew-Mac ruler. There may be some who THINK they can, of course.

This is not meant as an apology for sloppy work. My violin making teacher used to say that there are a number of ways you can do most things, but you have to settle on one and do it that way. As long as it looks like you meant it, it's probably OK. If the slots are properly spaced according to some rule the overwhelming majority of players won't notice which rule was used, in my experience.

I wonder if you might be thinking of the 'American School of Lutherie', Charles Fox's operation? The GAL never did classes to my knowledge, and I've been in it a long time.

The LMI Japanese files I have are double sided, but it's the same on both sides, NO TAPER. You are mistaking them for the other ones (double sides, two sizes each and tapered), which are the same ones StuMac also sells, and as we both agree, those suck.

The ones you have, and the ones I have are similar, but the big difference is quality. As a working luthier I need as many gauges I can get, so sets are desirable, and cut down the price.

I clicked on the link to your website Tai Fu, but the site does not exist and the domain is for sale, so going by that and your above statement, you are most likely not a working luthier.

Luthier is a real profession not just a job, it just lacks a term for the hobbyist version thereof, and there are a few posts in this thread and this forum, on the subject about the differences of those who should and those who shouldn't call themselves luthiers. I don't know where you fit in there, but it is up to you to be honest with yourself on that one.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!