Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks Hesh!

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

I'm guessing a compromise between the two is needed because the materials we use don't behave as ideal engineering materials and every player and instrument is different. I try to get close to flat as the string leaves the nut, but not quite all the way there, else open notes might vibrate along the nut and sound like a sitar and then I will have to make a new nut. And a real string can't conform perfectly to an extreme break angle. And a steel string baritone vs classical vs mandolin have different strings lengths and gauges to think about. And I guess Alfred Hamfist is going to need a larger angle than Gordon Lightouch.

Knowledge, experience, intuition, hands, and files have to come together to make a good nut. And a good nut is paramount to a good guitar.

You have it, neither is desirable to the extreme the flat ramp will lose its edge faster and if the slots are as low as they should be, buzzing will occur sooner from wear. 6 to 8 degrees is good, slightly rounded so strings don't kink. We are not machines, and with practice you will dial it in naturally over time. My nut's are closer to Dave's (I can not find a better way to say it!).

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Here's what I've been using since the late 70's. Ibanez nut files.... They have 2 different widths on each file - giving me 6 different widths. They have a radius for the bottom of the slot, and the edges of the files have teeth that cut on the side. If you tilt the file sideways back and forth you can move the slot around a little as you cut.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODY0WDg2NA==/ ... hG/$_1.JPG

The original sets were 3 fret files and 3 nut files. I have a couple complete sets, and am always looking for new unused sets in case I ever break or lose my old stuff.

I recently added one of StewMac's feather files to my nut making arsenal, and use it ONLY for starting slots on new nuts. A few passes, and I'm done with it.

I do like to ramp my nut slots if at all possible. I usually finish the slots after the nut is shaped and glued - just a hint of Titebond will work (unless it's graphite - then I use cyanoacrylate). I shoot for an exposed string on the wound side, and almost full depth for the plain side. General rule of thumb - Fender nuts a little deeper since there is no peghead angle.

I'm an old Don Teeter disciple, but I've learned a few tricks since I started. Yup - nuts wear out, even brass ones. Some of the local guitars I've worked on since the 70's have been re-nutted every 10 years or so.

For luthiers, nut making is an absolutely essential skill. More than any other thing on a guitar, a good nut will enhance the sound, the intonation, and the playability of the instrument. If the nut ain't right, the guitar will never reach it's full potential.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Fret jobs are equally important, as is bridge placement. Any of those done badly, can render guitars worthless. Sound actually comes after that, as that is a matter of taste, so if one person does not like the sound of one of your instruments, someone else will. Making a terrible sounding guitar (bad tone) is not that easy! If a guitar is hard to play, or buzzes and rattles, even most non musicians and tone deaf people will notice.

Of course there are tone deaf people out there that insist on playing guitar and even more tone deaf singers, the karaoke bars are packed with them!

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Bravo and it's very cool to have some help from you Bob instilling in folks that guitars are FAR more than a woodworking project. Ultimately guitars are tools for musicians and the set-up is the "user interface" to that instrument. Regardless of how pretty a Luthier guitar is built, what the rosette looks like if the thing plays like crap prospective clients will notice likely at once and be turned off.

For years here I have been trying to drive home the point that when your neck is finished and attached to the body there is still a LOT to do in terms of a proper set-up to do justice to the instrument and the builder's reputation.

I hope that you don't mind but I Googled you and you are clearly a very experienced pro with some famous clients too!! Great to have you here AND it's also great to have another repair guy as well.

Do you know David Collins perhaps from the Northwoods seminars? Dave is my business partner and we have a very busy shop in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor... Here's a standing invite to you if you are ever up north this way to stop in and visit with us.

I also read about Smashing Pumpkins which is very cool too. Do you know Rick Turner? He was Gerry Garcia's on the road guitar tech back in the day and even survived it all too.... One of our friends in A2 Brian DeLaney was Nugent's on the road tech for a decade and he also survived the partying, destroying hotel rooms, women..... etc.....

Hesh, surviving the drugs, alcohol and partying is easier than surviving Ted Nugent! There was even a TV show on the subject!

I started out as an industrial electrician, and geek out on engineering, so I have a good mechanical background. I went to school in Germany (west back then) and learned how to file things out of metal more accurately than most could make with a lathe or milling machine. I have the Mercedes Benz mentality engrained in me: Function follows form. Being a little obsessive compulsive helps too, not a bad trait for a craftsman.

I also have lived a life of misdiagnosed illness, so I do not have much to show of my craft and lost my shop twice because of it. I have a diagnosis now (somewhat late) and am finally getting my poop together, slowly but surely.

Ann Arbour is just up the road, and I will make it a point to give you guys a visit, but that may have to wait for better weather.

I do not know David Collins, nor have I ever attended a seminar, or class on guitar repair or building. I am completely self taught, and had only conflicting books as an aid, which begged me to question and drove my education. I did although make it a point to experiment on my own instruments rather than mutilating those of unsuspecting subjects, until I had it down. The latter seems customary, and although I think it is wrong, it brings me business.

I have a question for you too: Is the black guitar in the picture dyed, black lacquer, or even made of a dark wood (and therefore shunned by all of guitardome)?

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

The standard in violin making has long been to have 1/3 of the string in the slot. Lutes use even less slot depth. This was done to prevent strings binding in the slots for the most part. Keep in mind that nut slotting files and such are a very recent introduction: up until thirty or forty years ago many folks used a triangle file. You could finesse the slot to have a more or less round bottom, but it was always tapered, and you had to be careful that it didn't get too narrow. It may be a bit more difficult to get the slots right that way, but not that much. The main 'benefit' of nut slotting files that I can see is visual; they might look a bit neater. In any case, at this point in time you really can't do it the old way (unless you're doing a forgery of an old guitar); the market won't abide that sort of 'sloppiness' any more.

The old triangular shaped slots would eventually wear into a round bottom slot because the triangular slot is only contacting the string in two places. I see the use of modern nut files as a way of setting up a slot that will wear much less.

I can vouch for that buzz!
Especially on classicals, having just an hour ago finished making a new nut for one. Sitar city for a few minutes till I realized.
Mostly on steel strings, I've used about 3 degrees, but found a little more (about 5 degrees) seem to be needed on a classical nut.
Both I ramp down in a curve straight back, then curving as it exits towards the post tie point.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Ye old forces of nature! Classical strings have less tension, more angle is needed to compensate.

Thanks for reminding me Colin North! I just put a classical on my bench now! Very peculiar, how things work out sometimes. Its a 1972 Low grade Yamaha and it is getting a real bear bone nut and saddle. I am using a wider saddle to facilitate setting more precise intonation, I will deepen it's slot in the bridge and then flute it in order to take out some stiffness, so it can transfer more vibration to the guitar top, thus increasing sustain. I may even drill and taper holes through the bridge and top beneath it under each string to increase the volume (the latest thing in Spain since ~1992). It may end up sounding better than it's higher end cousins. But that's a whole other topic.

Maybe I will open a new thread and post some pictures of all that in a few days.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Bear bones eh!
What's a fluted bridge/saddle?
Be interested to see all those mods and get your opinion of their effect.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I dunno. I find a previous comment about nut files being a recent development very interesting. It's all I've used, but I'm a newbie by comparison. I'm thinking the reason B and high E tend to be boogers is because of the matched narrow slots. Just a theory, but I'm gonna test it. Perhaps the larger strings are less effected because of a large mass to diameter ratio. But if you scan threads on this issue, B and High E are almost always the issue. A recent setup I did came out much much better when I slightly oversized the B and high E slots.

V slots may be less attractive, but they would appear to minimize contact area with the nut...

The issue with V slot is they can cause binding, especially with wound strings.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

There seems to be some overthinking here and none of this need be difficult. Mike if the b and high e give you fits and you use the files that I linked to that we use I suggest that your slots are possibly too deep (too much nut material to cut through) and that the files are binding because the slots are too deep and too tight. That's where the scrape the slot side on the initial down stroke technique that I mentioned widens the slot and nixes the bind. It will also make a .013 happy as a clam in a .014ish slot with no pinching or "ping" noise when tuning.

Tai Fu right you are, V shaped slots can bind and contribute to tuning instability if the pinched or bound string is not smoothly increasing or decreasing tension/pitch when tuned.

I'm going to beg to differ with Al here respectfully. Nut files may well indeed be a more modern thing, the last couple of decades...., but it's more then the resulting appearance of the slot that is the real value add of proper dedicated nut files. We can consistently rely on the resulting slot size because they are marked (and mine are measured and remarked), I can be more precise with my nut files cutting a marked line because the file is not so honking big that I can't see under it and again V shaped slots are not what we want to result. Modern, gauged nut files cut precise slots with nice rounded bottoms giving the string a smooth bearing surface instead of being pinched in the sides of a V shaped slot.

And that would be a good thing? ............. The answer to that is no.

If you want a minimum contact then just place the string on top of the nut with no slot.

"Nut files may well indeed be a more modern thing, the last couple of decades."

Heh--that brought up a memory. Remember, "Norman's Nutfiles?"

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https://soundcloud.com/jeffreylsuits/he ... -runnin-13

But Hesh; it's perfectly possible to make nut slots that work as well and are as precisely located with a triangular file if you're good at it. Of course, it takes time to get that good. The ones made with a triangle file won't look as 'precise', but that's about it.

Fluted saddle = separate topic I will have to start some day soon.

Hesh pointed out that by rocking the nut file left and right, you relieve the slot so that it is not perfectly straight, so in fact that creates sort of a V, its just very narrow, that does not mean that the bottom of it is not still round.

As a rule: If 1/3 of the string (diameter) makes contact with the nut, with that 1/3 centred of course, you should have no binding issues. The sides can be 3 feet tall and taper out at any angle, it will make no difference for binding, as long as you have no more than that 1/3 contact. Slightly less will also work, but not enough may lead to the dreaded "Sitar effect". It still helps to have a slot rather than just a 1/3 round notch, so that the string cant be pulled out of the notch.

Since the nut slots will eventually wear down, in which case that 1/3 becomes 1/2 (which it will but never more because it is round), You can always either taper or round out the front of the nut down to almost the very bottom of the slots, essentially turning them into ledges. Zero frets have no slots or anything initially, but a nut or slots in the fingerboard end at close proximity are still required to prevent lateral movement, and if those are to tight, binding may still be a problem.

The only real reason for a nut in the first place, is to extend the time it would take for a zero fret to wear down enough to cause buzzing, as it would be the only fret to always have pressure on it at all times. You can make easy to replace zero frets by filing down the barbs from the tang. Lateral support is not necessary, as string tension will hold it in place. Some way to hold it in place is still desirable, to prevent it falling out and getting lost when all of the strings are removed, and there are a few ways to do that without a crap load of ciano acrylate.

And stop putting so much freakin' glue on the damned nuts! it takes hardly any at all, and I am sick and tired of having to surgically extract them to prevent tearing up the wood!

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

Al Dave is as I write this setting up an experiment to compare results from various files. We have microscopes and digital cameras and will post the results.

What would be helpful from you Al is what kind of triangular file, precisely? There are lots of varieties.

TIA (thanks in advance not this is Africa....)

Bob E. - great post (again) and it sure is nice to have another repair guy here!

Thanks Hesh, now I know where to go whenever I get one of those tiny splinters stuck in me!

I have some Japanese knife edge saw sharpening files, that can cut hardened steel, and they are the best for starting a nut slot, as they do not veer off target, but they still cant replace nut files for the actual slot. Using triangular files has way to many disadvantages to be practical for nut slotting.

One thing no one has mentioned is accurate string spacing. There are two main methods: equal from string centre to string centre, and equal from string edge to edge. I prefer the latter. With the centre to centre method, the low strings may feel to close together. in either case, it is not that easy to get that right, but there is enough room for adjustment as you work your way down the slot. I use a dial calliper to check periodically as I am cutting the slots, and adjust the cut accordingly to tease it into place on the way down. If the nut is low to start with, it leaves little room for adjustment. Filing the top of the nut down to just above the strings is easy with a course file after all slots are done, but it should be done with the surrounding area and strings well protected. Fine sanding and polishing is done with the same precautions, but with the strings off.

I know that "Center" is correct for all Americans here, but this forum is set to British English, and the spell checker got on my case about it, after all they developed the English language.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

I took some quick micro-shots just for the heck of it. Keep in mind of course that they represent the shape of the file run straight, not employing any technique as Alan mentions to create an intentionally shaped slot as different from the file shape. Cut in buffalo horn and a plain steel string CA'd in. First is from a Grobet joint round edge file.



Then these are from three different triangle files







And this is from a double-sided nut file like the StewMac or old Ibanez files with different sizes on each side. Marked as a .026", string sitting in it is .024"



Again though, the shape of the slot is not limited or determined only by the shape of the tool, but largely by the operator's intentional (or careless) use of it. Regardless of what you use, a rounded bottom I believe is essential, as close as reasonably feasible to the radius of the string. Pinching only on the sides with a gap beneath I would say is bad, and depending on the breaker angle and downward pressure, to wide of a curve with no side support can bring problems as well.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

David, those are great photos and really illustrate the differences between the files.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Boy am I glad I chose the more expensive Jap files from LMI, they cut groves like the Grobet.

I don't have a microscope like the ones you have, and can not use mine with my camera, but looking at my results with my hand held at 30X, the round bottom is undistinguishable from the Grobet. The LMI files come in 10 or more sizes, and cut on both edges too, but they are the same on both so it doubles the usage. They cut fast, are easy to control and leave a finish better than 400p sandpaper. The thinner ones can snap if one does not pay attention and bends them to far, but that hard steel the Japanese are so famous for cuts like nothing else I know of, and the blades hold for years. I wish my fret crowning file bits were made that good.

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!