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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:46 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I was just about to say what Waddy said. Once you get over being afraid of the open time and hassle (which really isn't all that bad), it really is an easier glue to use than many others. It doesn't slip around nearly as much and it is easy to re-do a joint if you need to. If a glue up didn't line up correctly you can just take it apart and redo it without having to scrape down to wood.

The only real downside for me is prep time. Lately I don't get extended periods of time in the shop and I often getting frozen glue up to temperature in the crocpot takes up most of the session. . . Frank Ford showed that he heats it in the microwave to melt it. I tried that once and my microwave made a big mess of the glue in a short time. Maybe I should try again; sometimes I'll resort to tightbond and really be wishing I had the HHG warmed up.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:28 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I've been thinking of jumping on the hhg bandwagon for some time now. I started using fish glue a few years back after having resisted that for some time but found it to be a wonderful choice for just about everything. The fast tack is what I like about it the best but for many applications I don't like the wait time so HHG would be perfect for that. I can't say for sure since I don't use HHG but I cannot see how a chemical bond between wood regardless of the glue type would affect the tone. I think maybe people who think that way envision that there is a thin layer of glue between the two pieces of wood that make up the joint and that the HHG layer is rock hard while the Titebond one is plastic but I don't think that's quite how it works. Of course again, I don't have the experience to know one of the other. I have not noticed tonal improvements with fish glue over Titebond.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:34 pm 
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Bryan Bear wrote:
I was just about to say what Waddy said. Once you get over being afraid of the open time and hassle (which really isn't all that bad), it really is an easier glue to use than many others. It doesn't slip around nearly as much and it is easy to re-do a joint if you need to. If a glue up didn't line up correctly you can just take it apart and redo it without having to scrape down to wood.

The only real downside for me is prep time. Lately I don't get extended periods of time in the shop and I often getting frozen glue up to temperature in the crocpot takes up most of the session. . . Frank Ford showed that he heats it in the microwave to melt it. I tried that once and my microwave made a big mess of the glue in a short time. Maybe I should try again; sometimes I'll resort to tightbond and really be wishing I had the HHG warmed up.

I assume you use the ice cube tray method, mixing up several batches of hide glue at a time and freezing them for later? Try keeping one or two at a time in the refrigerator for quick access. I heat water on the stove until small bubbles start appearing on the bottom of the pan and dump that in the Little Dipper crock pot to get it going faster than it can warm up on its own. About 5 minutes and you're ready to go.

A lot of the time I don't even bother refrigerating the glue overnight when I know I'm going to need it again in the morning. I lost one bottle in my shop a couple years ago, and found it a year after that, and have been periodically heating it up since then for science. Just did it last week, and it still passes the string test and the stronger-than-wood test (on black walnut).

Another unique feature of hide glue is its ability to make reasonably strong endgrain joints, due to the fact that it sticks to itself. Apply glue to the endgrain and let it dry, lightly sand to re-flatten the surface, and then do the real glue-up. The pre-coat prevents the endgrain from sucking up the glue and starving the joint. Good for headstick scarf joints and the butt joint between a headblock extension and upper transverse brace. Also used on violin head and tail blocks, because the plates glue to the endgrain surfaces of them. I think they're done that way because it's strong enough to hold, but weak enough to separate easily for servicing later.



These users thanked the author DennisK for the post: Bryan Bear (Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:48 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Bryan Bear wrote:
I was just about to say what Waddy said. Once you get over being afraid of the open time and hassle (which really isn't all that bad), it really is an easier glue to use than many others. It doesn't slip around nearly as much and it is easy to re-do a joint if you need to. If a glue up didn't line up correctly you can just take it apart and redo it without having to scrape down to wood.

The only real downside for me is prep time. Lately I don't get extended periods of time in the shop and I often getting frozen glue up to temperature in the crocpot takes up most of the session. . . Frank Ford showed that he heats it in the microwave to melt it. I tried that once and my microwave made a big mess of the glue in a short time. Maybe I should try again; sometimes I'll resort to tightbond and really be wishing I had the HHG warmed up.

Bryan, here's the way I do it. I have a small microwave in the shop. I keep a 1 oz bottle of HHG in the fridge. Takes about 3 minutes to heat the water for my little crock pot and then put bottle and water in the pot. Ready for glue up in about 10 min.

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These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: Bryan Bear (Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:48 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:48 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Dennis, it is interesting that your old bottle was okay after being left at room temperature. Every time I leave hide glue out it gets mold in it after a few days. Once I left some glue in a glass jar and it dried and chipped all the glass surface of the bottom of the jar.

After reading Dennis and Steve's replies, I think I will try two things differently. 1) keeping glue in the fridge instead of the freezer. If that keeps the mold from forming then I can judge the feel of the warmed glue to make sure it is fresh enough. 2) Heat the water before I put it in the pot by not putting a hunk of FROZEN glue in the water and starting with much hotter than the final target temp should get things going much faster. I had been just filling the pot with hot tap water.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:07 pm 
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Yeah, I don't know why my hide glue never grows mold. It's the 192 gram strength that LMI sells. But I used to have a can of Behlen 145 gram strength that smelled a lot more like a dead animal, and that never grew mold either. I never left a bottle of it sitting out for an extended period, though.

Oh, and I have it in a small plastic squeeze bottle with a cap, so only a small amount of outside air ever goes in (after squeezing glue out of it), so that would limit the chances of mold spores making their way in. It's apparently quite airtight since it hasn't dried out at all in the 2 years it's been sitting out.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:08 pm 
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The OP mentions the inherent hassles associated with HHG -- I agree, pots, trays, refrigerators, freezers, mold, rushing to finish etc.-- here's another real world perspective. I am another one that has always used Franklin adhesives.

http://www.franklinadhesivesandpolymers ... f?sfvrsn=0

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:16 am 
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I have never had the glue get mold on it but I always mix a fresh batch for each bracing job and use bottles distilled water and use a well cleaned squeeze bottle which I rinse with distilled water before use. If there is any bacteria in the tap water or on the container it could be the cause of mold.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:27 am 
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Name the extra 50 pcs in a 12 string...I count 6 pins, 6 strings and 6 tuners. What are the other 32?
I'm glad I got out when I did, because I really did like the old white LMI glue for top and back assembly to the sides. It was hard and not rubbery like Tite bond. I preferred Elmer's Carpentry Glue to Titebond. No cold creep.
Other than that, HHG is the best for joining tops and backs and best for braces.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:37 am 
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Haans wrote:
Name the extra 50 pcs in a 12 string...I count 6 pins, 6 strings and 6 tuners. What are the other 32?. . .


I missed where this question came from but now I'm curious what they are. I suppose in addition to 6 strings, pins and tuners, you could count 6 tuner bushings and 6 tuner screws that gets us to 30. If you really want to get picky you could say there are 6 additional string balls. I got nothin'

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:46 am 
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Not trying to be critical here but bacteria does not cause mold. Mold is fungi and it spreads through air dispersed spores. All you need to do is leave a glue bottle open for a few minutes and a few mold spores that are always in the air will land in the bottle. Leave the glue bottle at room temperature for a few days and mold will grow. Actually, HHG is very similar to the agar that labs use for culturing bacteria and fungi. It is basically food, and quite tasty too.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: Michael Lloyd (Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:31 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:54 pm 
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The guys in the shop stick me with all the hide glue prep, which is to turn on the glue pot, top off the water, and get the 2 ounce squeeze bottle out of the fridge and put it in the glue pot. More bother to unstick the cap on the Titebond container. The biggest mistake I've made was letting the pot cook dry when I forgot to turn the pot off...there was some dissolved hide glue in the water, so it smelled like a dead horse the next AM.

When I read about hide glue, it sounded fussy and hard to do, but in reality, simpler than any other glue I've used when cleanup and the way it tacks up so nicely is taken into consideration.

Mold is something that is of concern when using hide glue for the side tapes, so I was told to shellac the side tapes to seal them against mold and mildew.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:11 pm 
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Yeah HHG need not be complicated and even I used to think that it was, wrongly.

Back in the day folks would just add new glue to old or when the stuff was getting a bit thick I've even heard stories of Luthiers pissing in their glue pot.... Brings new meaning to the word urea....

For the floaters, the folks who use squeeze bottles and I'm one for certain applications it's a hot water bath and a squeeze bottle. I use a stainless steel bolt in my bottles which I learned from Mario P. The bolt is great for mixing the stuff up as in the rattle in rattle can and the bolt can also help keep the bottle upright when getting low and floating in a bath.

Lots of folks use a hold-heat pot and that is indeed a bit messier and more clean-up involved, certainly more than a squeeze bottle with glue in it. Still no-one ever said that Lutherie had to be as clean as surgery.....

We use enough of it that it never gets old in our shop and we keep it in a baby food jar that's in the fridge when not in the hot water bath.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:16 pm 
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Woodie G wrote:
Mold is something that is of concern when using hide glue for the side tapes, so I was told to shellac the side tapes to seal them against mold and mildew.


No harm in shellacking side tapes but is it really necessary and this is a figurative question....

Only several million guitars exist today that were glued up with HHG with lots of squeeze-out, drips, side tapes likely dipped in hide and I have never seen the inside of a guitar get moldy that could not be traced to other causation such as a damp environment, having been under water, etc.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:12 pm 
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Fish glue;
or Bordens Carpenters glue.
it dries hard -has a fast tack -
And when dry looks like a pale fish or HHG

Mike

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:05 pm 
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I also use the little squeeze bottles in a Hold-Heet water bath. Usually mix a fresh batch for most operations.

I used to get all fussy weighing the glue and water but now just stick some in a bottle, add enough distilled water to saturate the glue and just cover the top, heat a pitcher of hot water in the microwave for 3 minutes, (usually around 160) pour it in the Hold Heet and toss in the bottle. It usually equilibrates to 140-145 pretty rapidly and the glue is usually ready to use in 20 30"
Add a little water if too thick or some glue if too thin.

I'll reuse the same bottle a couple of times over a period of a few days without making a new batch but that's about it.

There was a thread on the now defunct Professional Luthiers Forum a while back about the demise of LMI white and Tightbond Extend was recommended as a substitute. That's what I use now for closing the box, end blocks, lining etc. It seems to dry harder than regular Tightbond in my crude trials.

Have not tried Fish but I intend to.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:21 pm 
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Bryan Bear wrote:
Haans wrote:
Name the extra 50 pcs in a 12 string...I count 6 pins, 6 strings and 6 tuners. What are the other 32?. . .


I missed where this question came from but now I'm curious what they are. I suppose in addition to 6 strings, pins and tuners, you could count 6 tuner bushings and 6 tuner screws that gets us to 30. If you really want to get picky you could say there are 6 additional string balls. I got nothin'


That Taylor BS treatise on Titebond...the only reason Leo likes 'em is if he or the airline breaks one they will get him one right away, NOW. So, essentially, they are throw away guitars.

How bout more slots in the nut? Oh, wait, that would be taking away...



These users thanked the author Haans for the post (total 2): Terence Kennedy (Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:16 pm) • Clinchriver (Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:06 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:43 pm 
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I think the idea behind shellac is to seal the surface of the tape against fungal attack...I just hope I never get an instrument wet enough to worry about it. It does make those tapes look nice, though.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:00 pm 
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Terence Kennedy wrote:

There was a thread on the now defunct Professional Luthiers Forum a while backThat's what I use now for closing the box, end blocks, lining etc. It seems to dry harder than regular


Man, that's what we need, a "Defunct Professional Luthiers Forum", one for old codgers. Well I remember the time I ,uh, uh... duh



These users thanked the author Haans for the post (total 2): Terence Kennedy (Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:17 pm) • Bryan Bear (Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:59 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:13 pm 
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I'm using Old Brown glue for box closing now. AFAIK, it's just hide glue with urea added. It's weird though, the squeeze-out never dries. It forms a waterproof film on the surface when exposed to air. But apparently the glue line itself dries into the wood just fine. Though I do wonder if it would ever dry on torrefied wood...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:20 pm 
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been using fish and hide glue for about 6 years or more. Can't beat it. At Woodstock NY Invitational this year Mike Gurian , Tom Ribbeke , Bill Collins , Cat Fox , Roger Sadowski all agreed the fish glue was their glue of choice. Still we all have to agree there are some great tite bond guitars out there.
I like the animal glues for the repair and lack of cold creep.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:32 pm 
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I have my personal concerns about Old Brown Glue. Does not dry as hard as HHG. I will not use it on a guitar.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:13 pm 
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Since we are talking hide glue process:

I used to make up a large batch of glue, pour it into a lot of small plastic bottles, then freeze them all. That worked OK, but yeah, frozen to 140F can take a little time. I do it differently now. I make every 3 ounce batch fresh, every time. I make a smaller amount if I know I won't use that much. It only takes a few minutes for the granules to absorb the water, and from there it goes to a 140F liquid real fast. I use a brass double boiler from MusiCaravan on top of a science student hot plate. My glue comes out great now.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:33 pm 
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I used to think hide glue was too much trouble, and I wanted the gap-filling properties of Titebond. After trying out hide glue, I’ve started using it more and more.

I bought a pound of hide glue about 30 years ago, planning to learn hammer veneering, but chickened out. I kept the glue on a shelf in the cellar, with dozens of other odds and ends. Somewhere along the way I saw a Rival hot pot at a thrift store for a buck, so I bought it and stuck that on the shelf too.

As I built my first guitars, I learned that if a joint needs gap-filling glue fix the gap in the joint. I started to use fish glue for most things.

I mixed up a batch of my 1983 hide glue and found it works fine. After a little research confirmed that hide glue lasts decades, I started experimenting with it. Like others, I found it isn’t much trouble, and the clean-up is great. It doesn’t ruin clothes, and its repairability allows me to re-work my screwups. I still use hide glue for things I want a lot of time with, but I’m using hide glue more and more.

I might even try learning hammer veneering.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:51 pm 
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TimAllen wrote:
I might even try learning hammer veneering.

Not much to learn. Just slop some glue on one side, and either water or more glue on the other side to prevent cupping, stick it down, rub across the surface for a while, and you're done. For small things you can just use your fingers instead of a veneer hammer. Works great for gluing purfling strips to binding strips :)

I also use that cupping prevention technique for headplates and fingerboards, even though I do clamp them.



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