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Hello,

I was having some problems with lacquer and thought about asking what many of the builders here are using on there guitars. Your help would be appreciated. Any type of finish is ok with me, just looking for a solution to current problems.


Michael Keller
www.kellerguitars.com

I use warmed rattle can nitro.

Describing your problem will get you to a solution quicker.

Don't like the stink? I use Mohawk non rattle can nitro.

Mohawk lacquer for my 1st 30, tried Brite-tone on the last one and it has some potential though I am not totally convinced it is better than lacquer. To me the water born finishes all feel cold and plastic to me but the brite tone feels more like lacquer.
The Brite-tone is a bit harder to spray but is high build and 1/3 of a quart does a guitar, they recomend you sand and buff after 100 hours but I found it had some shrink back I noticed a couple weeks after buffing was completed so I will wait a few days longer next time.

Fred


Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

I'm just finishing up a Royal Lac finish. It's turning out beautifully. I padded it on (a bit like a French polish but my pad was significantly wetter so I got finish on quicker). Then I wet sanded with 600, 800. 1000, 1200, and 1500 (a drop of dawn dish detergent in the water) and buffed it out. It looks amazing.

I've done French Polish in the past with regular shellac and Royal Lac seems like a MUCH tougher finish.

I know that sanding/buffing shellac is not typical but I remember reading an interview with Dana Bourgeois where he said he buffed his shellac finishes because he hadn't learned any differently and it worked. I figured I'd try it and it worked great.

Keep in mind this is based on doing 1 guitar this way and I'm only on my 7th build ever, so take this with a HUGE grain of salt.

I was using nitro but hate the stink.

I just finished spraying 2 guitars with Royal Lac. Finishes look really good off the gun but won't be buffing them out for another 3 weeks or so.

Also sprayed a mandolin with Royal Lac and that one came out great.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I used to use nitro, back when I was young and foolish. Having changed both variables I stopped. For one thing, I've become very sensitive to the fumes, but I also realized that it's chemically unstable. Why use a finish that's going to break down before the instrument wears out?

French polish is a good finish. It's much less suitable to steel string guitars than Classicals, if only because the steel string folks are used to tougher stuff. OTOH, these days even the Classical players don't know how to treat it; I've had some pretty bad experiences in the past couple of years. It's also a fair amount of work, and requires both very good surface prep and some skill. On the plus side, it gets better with age: harder and more solvent resistant. Also, everything that goes into French polish is edible, although moderation is certainly in order with the solvent (alcohol). For that matter, you might not want to eat too much shellac either, although it makes a great coating on candy.

I tried a couple of water based finishes some years ago, and had bad enough experiences with them that I'm a pretty tough sell at this point. One of them looked fine new, but became cloudy over time, and turned into chewing gum on the back of the neck. That sort of thing doesn't have to hit you too many times before you get skeptical.

Mostly over the years I've used oil-resin varnishes. At the moment I'm switching over to Murdoch's 'Ure-Alkyd 500' floor varnish, since the one I was using, Behlen's 'Rock Hard Table Top Varnish' has been re-formulated as a polyurethane (which I've never had any luck with). That sentence encapsulates one of the big problems with using varnish: the manufacturers keep switching product lines, so that just when you get good with something it goes away. This new stuff seems to be about as hard as nitro, and it goes on nice and thin: I'm ending up with films .002"-.0025" thick. Of course, at that thickness, nothing does much to protect against dents, but OTOH, it doesn't hurt the sound much either. Varnishes tend to be tougher than resins like nitro; they'll dent rather than chip or scratch. They can be hard to touch up. Varnish also takes a long time to fully cure: it will shrink back for three months. On the plus side, nothing else lets the 'light' into the wood like a good oil varnish. Everything else looks veiled by comparison.

Fred, did you use hvlp or conventional sprayer?

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Oil violin varnish. Brushed on.

I so want to use nitro. But, till I get a building separate from the house, out of the question. Ain't putting my family and house on the line for my hobby. Used EM6000. Like it save the blue haze. Now using Enduro Var. like it so far. But you cannot take a serious break between coats. That to me is the downside. Once u start, u are there till the end meaning a good 12-14 hour day. Give or take. The upside is the beautiful Amber color. And ease of sanding etc.

Most have been French polished, but about 4 with Tru-Oil, have done very well, and two with Royal Lac with sort of a hybrid application of part laying on and buffing back and finishing up with a French polish shine. I have also re-polished using Royal Lac one guitar that was French polished with regular shellac. That worked quite well too. Truthfully, the Tru-Oil finishes have held up very well. All classical guitars though.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Trying to find a better way to finish my guitars I had contacted seven professional guitar makers making a living off of their work, asking them what type of finish they were using. Was very surprised to hear back about six new types of finish that I had never heard of. It made me wonder how many other types of finish there are out there that will work on guitars, so I thought of the OLF, with its broad base of builders. I am open to any type of finish as long as it works. I have never French polished any thing, but have known many guitar makers who use it. The steel string guitar market is full of people who would not accept it on a custom guitar, for several good reasons that were explained to me by some of the builders I contacted. Am surprised how many builders I know who send their guitars to some one else for finishing. This means being willing to incur the cost of shipping both ways plus the cost of finishing. Not a small amount of money that would have to be added to the cost of a guitar .Then there is the risk of shipping damage to the instrument. Also, living in Minnesota it would be a problem 5 months of the year with cold weather temps below freezing. I have used nitro for all of the 40 years I have been building guitars and have tried many, many brands. Its just the current one is not working, and I really don't want to slam a product publicly. So thank you for taking some time to share your thoughts on this with me .One more question, is royal lac a lacquer or a shellac?

Michael Keller
www.kellerguitars.com

Royal Laq is shellac with additives. The solvent is alcohol.

Doing my fourth with Royal Lac as I write this. One distinct advantage over nitro.

Can't promise it will last forever; but it works easily, looks phenomenal, can be French Polished to a high gloss, and cures harder than any other shellac product I've seen in about three weeks.

FWIW four guitars will be my total output this year.


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I really, really like French polishing Royal Lac. I've only done one so far, but it came out great. Really, you can use the same technique. The Royal Lac is a little stickier than regular shellac, and you have to keep in mind the difference between the Seal-Lac and the Royal Lac, but other than those small differences, it goes on just like regular French polished shellac. And that makes it ideal for somebody like me. I don't want to spray anything at all, and I want it to look great, sound great, and hold up to some abuse. It ticks all those boxes.

My last two are being finished for me with Seagrave's lacquer.

I have been using 3 epoxy base clear coats then KTM9 and now EM6000. I like the EM 6000 better. I have never really liked the epxoy process so have started something a little different. The last few builds have been french polish about 6 - 8 applications to build up, then EM 6000 for again 6 - 8 coats with level sanding every 3 coats. Let harden minumn 1 week befor level sanding. Once leveled to satisfaction dry sand 600- 1500 grit then Mirka 1000, 2000, 3000 to 4000 and buff. I am liking this so far.

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Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/

I'm surprised so few folks use Oil Varnish.
It's nearly idiot proof (don't sand thru o the last coat, or any if you can help it)
You can just stand outside and spray it, since you sand it after every coat. Sometimes gnats are hard to get out.
I use a Husky 8 gal compressor and a crap gun. The compressor was under $100 at the depot.
It's not nearly as toxic as Nitro (I'm sure it's still not healthy)
And it looks amazing, and feels great. And it's tough.

I'll use nitro sometime in the future (got five under my belt) but for now, the varnish is a nice finish.

Downside, it's a lot of work, and it takes a few weeks. For me it's a few months. But I allow a GOOOOD drying time before final leveling and buffing.

I can see if you need to do many guitars, this wouldn't work. So disregard my first sentence.

Doesn't Ervin and all the Sons of Somogyi French polish their tops....?

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

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I pad on Royal-lac, French polish with shellac and I spray EM6000. I have been happy with the look of EM6000 for SS but like Alan mentioned I find the necks get gummy after awhile. I have three of my guitars that I play daily and those guitars all ended up with the neck getting funky. I know I should be wiping down the neck after I play.

On my current classical guitar build I am finishing the back, side and neck with Roy-lac and the french polishing the top using shellac. I have no problem with Royal-lac on the top but it looks nicer than my FP and players do not see it as a French Polished top.

Now I am trying Royal-Lac for all of necks. I will see in a year or so how that holds up under my hands.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Curious comments on the "gummy necks" with EM6000 - never heard this before.
I have sprayed about 30 over the years with EM6000 and none of them have exhibited this vexation.
A few of them are in the hands of "pros" and get played hard often - no issues whatsoever....
FWIW I do not use epoxy - LMI micro-bead paste filler, 2 wipe coats of hand mixed ultra blonde dewaxed shellac and spray away...

My daily player of about 4 years now is finished with EM 6000 over shellac seal coat. Have not seen the gummy neck thing either. Perhaps a reaction to something else?

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I wonder if the gummy neck is related to the body chemistry of certain players. Where most would not have any issue at all but an unlucky few might ruin the finish.

Steve, send your guitar to John for a year so we can find out

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I had the EmTech bubble on the body where a player's sweat touched it. Seems a common enough complaint of the stuff at this point- Other guitars are fine so I definitely assume it is body chemistry. I tend to think if their hands dull string quickly they will also bubble that finish. I stopped using it and never used it for the neck.

At a recent gathering there were guitars with all sorts of different finishes. My observations were that the oil varnished guitars looked the best. The nitro ones also looked very nice but not as rich as the varnish. Polyester guitars still looked new but a little plastic-y.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I have had good success with EM6000. No gumminess noted. I think its a forgiving finish. Probably only plasticy if you leave too much on ("not how much you put on, but how much you leave on"). Four guitars in, so far, I am pleased with the results. I have used rattle can nitro (hazed up in the NC high humidity), rattle can water based lacquer from Home Dpot that sucked, and I started out using Tru-Oil which worked reasonably well, but I wanted a more durable finish...

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com