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Got a Fylde Orsino in, owner complaining of high action, difficult to play.
His left hand has been hurt (slowly recovering from a crush injury), and he can't play it for any length of time.
So he's been thinking to sell it, but reluctantly, as he loves the sound, hence his visit to me.

Measured the action at 2.6/2.4mm (0.1/0.95") and relief is OK. Strung with 52/11's, scale length 25.5"
Thing is, it does feel even harder, or "stiffer" to play than the figures suggest.
He had no problem playing my guitars which are properly set up.

Got it on the bench, found the frets are 1.35mm (0.053") tall. Zero fret is 1.5mm (0.59") high.
I know the action is high at the treble side, and the zero fret can be brought down to the same height as the rest of the frets.

But I'm thinking that the high frets are adding to the guitar feeling so "stiff" to play.
Comments??

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I'll let the experts weigh in but surely he should be encouraged to sell it and buy one of yours? What's the neck material?

Tried that, he's not biting!
Also let him play a Martin OM-21, (which he mentioned as a possible replacement) because I know the owner wants to sell it.
Mine, and the Martin, are all Sitka topped, and he likes the cedar sound - he's a picker and plays gently.
Neck of his guitar is Honduras Mahogany, spec page here http://www.fyldeguitars.com/orsino.html

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I think having the zero fret sit any amount higher than the rest of the frets is the source of the problem, not the fact that the frets are high or low in general. I think the best "low impact" experiment to run is to dress down the zero fret to match the height of the rest of the frets. Go ahead and level and crown all of the frets, including the zero fret. I bet the guitar feels a lot better after that. If I am wrong, there is only a single fret (the zero fret) to replace.

When I cut a new nut for a guitar, the final determining factor in how deep I cut the slots is how it feels to push the string down at the first fret, not any height measurements. I do measure afterward, and I pretty much am matching the height of the first fret. But the feel of it is what gets me there. I think that says something about nut (or in this case, zero fret) height and playability. For me as a player, I would hate having a zero fret that sits higher than the rest of the frets.

I agree with Don. Having a high zero fret is just like leaving the nut slots too high.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I agree with Don and Steve......................!
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Not to mention, but if the strings set too high at the zero fret, intonation problems could be heard.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

How's the play-ability with a capo at the first fret? It if feels OK then the answer likely is the high zero fret, if not, of course then there are other issues.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I agree with Don and Steve and Tom and...

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George :-)

If he plays gently, the 12th fret action seems high.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I would also consider refretting with lower frets. I had a customer insist on big EVO fret wire. The action always felt super high, even with my standard .90-.70 set up. He never ever played the guitar, always complained about the action. I convinced him to let me put in normal frets, and Yahtzee.

To me, redoing it with proper height frets is preferable to just grinding down the existing ones as it let's you maintain a better crown shape. Probably faster in the end as well...

How does it feel if you capo at the first fret?

OK guys, as I said original post, I know the zero fret is too high, but dropping it to fret height is only 6 thou, translating to 3 thou the the 12th fret.
If I capo at the 1st fret it makes very little difference. it's still like trying to play a barbed wire fence.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Well, you know what I'd do.

I think that's a typo and you meant 0.09 - 0.07". I normally use about 0.095/0.055" for my own guitars, a little more for more heavy handed people.
The Evo wire story interests me.
And this is what I think is happening with this guitar.

When I play this guitar (even with a capo!) my fingertips don't even touch the fretboard and I'm still getting clear notes easily.
Even capoed at the first, playing the 2nd fret feels like a high action, but if course it isn't.

A refret would be more money than he want to spend, about $350.
I am curious about your comment, the one about maintaining a better crown shape - ?
Fretwire width is only 2.00 mm (0.078"), the frets are only very high, not wide.
I have fret crowning files coming out of my ears - triangular, cant, ordinary type and diamond, 2 x 150 and a 300 grit, all offsets.
I've taken 0.4 mm off Dan Entwistle's favourite fret wire with nary a problem and still managed to crown frets which looked fine. (my first guitar, don't ask!!)

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I was assuming jumbo frets, and that filing them down would leave you with wide, flat frets.

For me, refretting takes less time than grinding and recrowning a whole board. I don't charge much for it. Our new guitars take maybe 20/25 leisurely minutes. Add 10 for a redo...

Yep, I always forget that first zero...

how old are the strings?

Is there a sharp break-over angle at the head & saddle?

If it does not have fret rattle(buzzing) then you may be able to lower the action some more.
At the saddle & zero fret.

Mike

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Mike Collins

Strings are virtually unused, just tarnished a bit.
Break angles all look pretty normal both at the saddle and zero fret - I just may have to cut the slots in the nut a touch when I lower the zero fret, but not much.
Yes, looks like nearly 1.8/1.9 mm may have to come off the treble side of the saddle.
2.4 mm action at the 12th is way too high.
I'll check after lowering the zero fret.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I can't do the translation in my head from metric to primitive... but the spec that is widely used in the industry which I believe is a Martin spec is as follows:

Measured at the 12th:

high e 4/64th" for 12's and 5/64th" for 13's
low e 6/64" for 12's and 7/64th" for 13's (of course the low e will not be a 12 or 13.....)

The above is for dr*ad sized instruments. For OM's and smaller bodied guitars and with folks who are not ham fisted with their playing 4/5 can work as low action. The high e number is always first followed by the low e hence 4/6, 4/6 etc.

Chris is right that a zero fret that is too high has the same intonation issues as a nut slot that is too high. Some folks make the zero a tad higher but we are talking less than .004" higher and even that is a bit too high for my liking.

I make my zeros the same height as the rest of the frets and level and crown with the others as well. Again this is the ark of the string thing that results in a nut slot being no higher than a fret but the string clears the fret.

I didn't read the entire thread so forgive me please if I am redundant.... but the age of the player may come into play when ever someone is complaining about something feeling too stiff or tight. I frequently deal with players my age who are losing hand strength or gaining arthritis and that can suck big time for them (and me....). The set-up becomes even more important when we get older and lose that death grip.... Lots of things that can be done though, lower action, lighter strings, precision fret dresses so the action can be even lower and even lower tension strings in some cases.

Our posts were like two trains passing in the night...

Before lowering the zero adjust the truss rod for optimal relief. Cutting nut slots or lowering a zero when there is too much relief can take things too low when relief is properly set.

My approach is:

1) relief
2) nut slots
3) set action with the saddle(s)

Action is a function of these three variables (there's more too but they are nits....). By doing the relief and then the slots first it takes these two variables completely out of play making the saddle a simple math exercise to get it right the first time. What ever you need to do at the 12th double it for the saddle in what ever form of measurements that works for you.

Sorry, I'm a bit slower than that at refretting!
But the crowning goes quite quickly, it's masking off the fretboard, polishing the sides of the frets, dressing fret ends, then cleaning up afterwards etc. etc, that seems to take longest!

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Injured hand.
Maybe a lighter set of strings would help till he heals.

any tarnished strings are probably to old.

I agree with Hesh .
Except the relief is different for every guitar.

Mike

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Mike Collins

I understand Hesh, but surely the first thing is to get the rest of the fret plane flat with the truss rod (after taking the stings off) before starting any work? Then put the zero fret level with the rest of them?
Have I missed something?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Going to be a long process Mike, and anyway he doesn't have a problem with any other properly set-up guitars, he did try three when he was here.
He provided a new set of the strings he likes, custom lights (good taste, my favourites!)

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

If you are dressing the frets yes. From your post I got the impression that you were addressing a high zero fret only and not doing a fret dress.

But sure, if dressing the frets truss rod and fret plane to level or near level. Near level is mentioned because it's not always the case that we want the rod to have the frets level before dressing. Often the wear is concentrated in specific areas or perhaps the neck angle sucks and when these things come into play the smart play is to adjust for minimum material removal but have that material removal be where the divots are or where the angle of the neck would benefit from some correction.

It becomes an exercise in reading a neck and if properly read it can greatly reduce the amount of work required, prolong fret life, and again belay the eventual need for a neck reset for perhaps several years or so.