Official Luthiers Forum!

It's a mandolin and it's still here for 3 or 4 weeks - my first commission. As always you're welcome anytime. By the way I forgot to tell you we came and saw you guys perform on St. Pats day - great show!! I documented the mandolin build in a thread in the Doc-U-Build section - there's some photos there of my progress with the finish.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks! Ill check out the Doc-U-builld. Ill holler at you in a week or so. I just finished up a few more zouks I can show you.

That sounds great - I love those zouks!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I have been testing Royal Lac in all versions for almost 2 years now and can't seem to reproduce any of the issues some folks are having here. I have put it in the oven, put it in the freezer, sprayed super heavy coats etc. and still it looks great. I can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong! haha

Robbie, Those words almost sound like those of a paid salesperson...



Perhaps you didn't read that the issue here was with the 26% mixture that was done improperly. Vijay admitted the error and has explained in detail what went wrong. If you haven't used the 26% solids formula, then you would not have had the results.

I'm not sure that making light of the situation is necessarily in good taste at this point, considering that I personally have a Brazilian Rosewood / Adirondack OM that is probably trashed because of the issue, Tim had numerous instruments basically wrecked, and others are having issues also. Forgive my bluntness, but at the moment I'm a bit testy due to not sleeping well for the last several weeks, and this hasn't helped...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

You have misinterpreted my comments Don as well as missed the fact that I said I have tested all versions, including the 26% solids version, and have not been able to reproduce those results. Vijay has also not been able to reproduce those results. Also, I am not a paid salesperson for Vijay. My intent is to let others know when I run across a product, service or technique that has helped me when I think it will benefit others. The only reason I am able to offer advice is that I have been exactly where you and others are and have been and know exactly what you are feeling. It is not a good feeling but one that I am sure you can figure out and correct with time. Happy Building.

Perhaps if you or Vijay were to spray this mis-formulated batch, you'd have better luck.

Even if unintentional, your initial post came across as, "Gosh, I just can't manage to screw it up." Don's been doing this for at least 17 years. He deserves a little benefit of the doubt when it comes to being able to apply some finish.

I am sorry you have misinterpreted my comments too. The written word is always vulnerable to misinterpretations. My intent was not to belittle or put down or even question someone's experience with finishing. Don and I have been here on this forum since the beginning and I have only the utmost respect for him, you and others that frequent here.
I have posted my experience here with this product since I learned about it and was asked by Vijay to do some testing. The entire process, finishing schedule and pics of the results are available here if folks choose to use it. I have sprayed the 26% solids version and like I said, I haven't had the same results. Like myself though, I am sure there are many people out there with success stories with this product. Perhaps they could chime in and explain what they have been doing to get the positive results. I am just trying to help find a solution to a difficult situation. Happy building.

Hello All,
The big difference, the way I see it, is that Robbie has tried it on a test piece whereas Don and Tim on real instruments. Now I am not a luthier but I hope I am right when I say that the two behave quite differently in terms of movement. Although in this case movement may not be the cause. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Flexibility of the finish is at issue here. Some variables that play a role in flexibility:
1) Different spraying patterns/techniques MAY show different results. For example if the spray is on the dry side, mobility of the molecules are greatly reduced thus preventing movement towards other molecular structures that they can bond with. On the other hand if the spray is too wet, it takes more time to off gas and if a succeeding coat is applied, it inhibits the previous from gassing out. So in the first case self condensation of the components is a possibility whereas in the second case curing is an issue. In both cases flexibility of the finish is compromised. Not inferring that spraying pattern/technique is the cause for the 26% failure.
2) Not enough groups available for the components in the finish, (due to incorrect formulation) to form bonds and create a structure. In this case, self condensation of the components reduces flexibility.
3) Thickness of the finish (not in this case though) is also a major cause. As thickness increases, flexibility reduces. A finish is not an inert solid layer. At the molecular level there are chemical changes happening all the time pushing up the glass transition temperature (Tg) towards a glassy state.
Since the 26% finish itself was at the edge due to miscalculation in the formula, as Don noted earlier, it simply exacerbates the whole process. This is not an exact science.

Thanks to Robbie who has helped me a lot by testing and teaching me the finer points of finishing a guitar.

I always appreciate your expertise, quality of service, and classiness, Vijay.

Me too - and the timely help I've received by email!

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"