Official Luthiers Forum!

FYI for budding loofiers . I had a potential client call me 3 days in a row, constantly wanting to change the parameters on his custom guitar every day .Finally gave up and said I couldn/t to it. Customers like this are never satisfied , and feel that it is their sworn duty to change their custom guitar daily , because they heard that luthier ABW recommended it on webiste XYZ . Your welcome to share your favorite story.

ernie;
I've only had 2 of these x!@#$%
They both ordered guitars.
After many phone calls & e-mails!

I give a money back offer.
That really makes it easier for them to order.
Knowing they can get a refund(as long as the guitar)
is NOT damaged,scratched--etc....
They pay shipping back.


I told them -you either make your final choice of
woods,size(of body)scale length-etc (with my input).................
or go somewhere else.
Like a music store where you can see &hear&feel a guitar in person.

I can understand being hesitant to spend 4-8 thousands without seeing or hearing the instrument!

Mike

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Mike Collins

Ernie, I feel your pain. The other client type I dread is the whiner. One in particular needed some extensive work done on his Strat. Told him it would be a week. He came back in 2 days and freaked out when I had it all blown apart to rout for humbuckers and adding a Floyd. He was wailing, "You ruined my guitar, man!". Changed his tune when it was all done.

I also got very tired of kids endlessly asking, "What's the best pickup? What's the best wood for a guitar? What's the best whammy bar? Who's the best teacher here at the store?"..... My answer was always the same, "What's the best peanut butter?".

I closed the retail shop in 1990, and have never regretted it. Now I just pick the guitars up at the stores, bring them home, and return to get paid. Don't have to deal with the crazy public any more.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Bless you guys/gals that have the skills and mind set to offer commissioned instruments -- that was not for me.

One thing I did is treat the deal the same as buying/selling real estate, phone conversations were meaningless everything was in writing -- period (today I suppose emails would be legal docs). There was a cut off date for changes and a non - refundable deposit required. If a maker is building an on site inventory along with commission builds money back less NRD and handling expenses is not too damaging unless its some real freak show project, which should be avoided anyway.

Besides getting an instrument from a certain custom maker -- the buyer is "getting to choose" in any luxury market that is a real big deal, so being hard core seems like its could be a slippery slope. But I do understand the frustration.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I usually never build custom, too much of a hassle. I follow hesh/s rule of build it and sell it . Not because I/m a hoidy toidy loofier, but because at my advanced age 67 . I have a clearer idea of what works and what doesn/t for me , and have no desire to convince or argue with potential clients. This call came out of the blue, so was not expected. I put this thread up to warn others of the pitfalls in making a client happy, and putting oneself out on a limb .Frankly it/s just not worth it . This person will no doubt try to find another loofier who will fulfill his daily guitar fantasies. Thanks for sharing your stories . Beginning to feel better about letting this sale go.

Well, I haven't been doing this long at all, but when folks start asking me if I will do this and that, I say, do you want one of my guitars or someone else's? If you want all that special stuff, you obviously don't want one of mine. If they are nice and say do you do cutaways, or something like that, I just say I don't, but thanks for asking. I did recently agree to add an arm rest to one of mine. I said we'll just have to see how much that will add. He said OK. I figure it's something I need to learn anyway.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I'm fortunate that that rarely happens to me. When it does, it's not from the customer trying to be difficult so much as them second guessing their choices.

I can usually talk them down, or change tack if their reasoning is sound.

I just ask them what the motivations are for the changes. Why are you departing from your initial choices, and what is the goal you are trying to attain by doing so?

If it turns into a two email a day type thing, I ask them to take some time to really think about it and get back when they have a more concrete idea of their needs.

That being said, I'm in one of those right now, but I think it's more because the dude wants the process to be a daily part of his life. Once in a blue moon you gotta take that on.

Sorry to hear that you had to deal with this Ernie my friend.

You and I talk from time to time so you know that I'm also very opinionated on the concept of what a sale actually is.... and/or what a prospect for a sale actually is.

You have decades of experience in the business world and I respect that greatly and it's one of many things that I enjoy talking with you about. As such you likely subscribe to the idea that the customer is NOT always right, at least some of them aren't, and these sorts can also create unwanted opportunity costs in all that they touch or whomever they encounter.

Where I am going here is to me a sale used to be when someone said "I'll take it..." Then time and experience taught me that a sale is actually when someone says "I'll take it" and they have the money to do so too, the check has to clear... Next I also learned that the organization, in this case perhaps a wife, etc. had to bless things too. Stakeholders ya know....

These days I believe that I have a sale when the customer says "I'll take it" and they have the coin and the check clears and no one gets divorced over it a few years out AND no one gets sued over it either for the rest of our days....

For me I have to ask myself knowing myself pretty well these days.... can I get through the entire transaction including perhaps adjustments in time, supporting the likely abuse the client will subject the instrument to without feeling like I want to choke the living crap out of someone before it's all said and done.

By this measure I rarely believe that I have a sale these days.... and I am pretty ok with this too.

Doing commissions aside some folks just suck! You can usually spot them pretty easy too because they complain and complain and somehow believe that approaching a new service provider offering nothing but disdain for the prior service provider is a good way to win friends and get one's guitar fixed.

We have a disclaimer on our web site in the "what to expect" page that discusses that we may turn work away. It's couched as being always in the clients best interest but the client was not the only one I was considering when I wrote it... Instead it's always on my mind that attempting to be all things to all folks never works and usually results in being very little to very few...

When I deal with a Doc who might say I want to send you to a specialist because my chops aren't there for you with this malady I respect that. We often have clients who seems be pretty OK with forcing someone who does not wish to work on their debacle to work on it anyway. There are differences where it's rarely the case that we don't have the capability needed but less rarely the case that the client shows overt signs of being a massive PITA as well as an energy sucker.... Danger Will Robinson....

We won't do it but remain very professional and may refer them to someone else and keep ourselves free to provide the value to the folks who we can help, who appreciate it, who do not create unwelcome opportunity costs by needing to be involved in the process in real time, etc.

We were talking about the word eccentric the other day. I'm still out sick and was in the hospital again yesterday so I have lots of time to feel sorry for myself and think about stuff that I normally won't think of. Been enjoying the OLf too including how well you guys did keeping on-topic with issues such as Chinese instruments. Hat's off to you guys - good going with difficult subject matter that could very easily gone political. That's why I stifled myself....

Anyway I believe that one who endlessly toils by candle light tirelessly crafting a precision musical instrument so that talented musicians may create beautiful music with the thing may entitle one to being an eccentric.... Of course I could be wrong and often am but I like this idea of being eccentric and seemingly along with it comes a bit of a license to have irritable bowel syndrome and basically be a bit of a curmudgeon when it suits us.

Seems to me and this is something that I often speak of that the number one occupational hazard of being a working Luthier is self inflicted wounds from attempting.... and you guessed it... to be all things to all folks. If you don't want to work on that instrument don't take it in... If you do work that others decide what has to be done with an example being music store work sands the direct client contact and you find yourself stuck doing the wrong work on the wrong instruments - don't do that music store work.

If you have commission clients who want to change the deal mid stream or have lives where financial commitments last as long as how long it takes to make the next frivolous purchase of something immediately gratifying seemingly forgetting funds earmarked for that commission still 12 moths out - don't do commissions OR get different clients.

Personally I've always been of the opinion that nothing on earth can happen to me that is undesirable that I did not have some clue, regardless of how very slight it may have been, that I need to exercise caution. Some may call this personal responsibility which is a term that means too many different things to too many folks for me. But I will say if I find myself talking to the wrong folks for the value that I provide it's on me and always on me to correct this. People will be people and all that this may mean but as working, professional Luthiers we have to exercise the judgement that we should have or be developing in choosing where our efforts produce the best results. Turning away work is one way to do this and in my view has to be done at least sometimes.

It's just so much easier doing deals when everyone agrees on a definable starting point, a definable ending point and a mutual definition of success. Anything less is likely to bite ya and in this business with my belief that self-inflicted wounds are the greatest occupational hazard being a bit selective today can make tomorrow a much brighter day....

Don't know why but in our shop when on rare occasion we need to turn someone away Dave always signals me to come over and do it. I feel like that kid Mikey in that commercial about letting Mikey eat it he hates everything....

Your story was well written and well said Kudos hesh! I remember mikey lol. Many years ago I was ordained by my girlfriends parents to get rid of the JW preachers off their front door in victoria bc. But I removed myself from the above gtr deal by significantly raising the price of the guitar as each new day echoed a bunch of e- mails, fone calls, and new upgrades.Get well soon hesh!!

..... and sometimes the best commision is the one you walk away from!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I had a guy in my shop a few years ago who wanted a custom guitar made. I explained my top grading system to him and went over other preliminary design considerations with him. We agree on things and he gives me a cash deposit. Next day he calls and wants to buy his own Cocobolo back and side set from eBay. I tell him OK. (Mistake.) Then about every other day or so he calls me wanting to change things about the design, many of which reveal his complete lack of understanding about how a guitar is made. He also continues to source his own stuff to go into the build. Oh, and he claims I agreed to use the best scoring top in my stash on his guitar, which I absolutely did not do.

When the Coco set arrived at his place, he tells me it is warped and can I still use it? I explain to him that guitar wood is thin and often unstable until it is braced and that it will probably be OK. A few days later he brings the set to my shop and it is twisted like a potato chip and stiff as iron, and way too thick. He also has some black and gold mother of toilet seat stuff that he has bought for me to cut the peghead logo inlay from. I tell him my thickness sander won't handle his wood and he gets very cross with me. He says it is too late for him to return it. I also tell him I only cut solid shell for my logo inlays and he gets frustrated about that too. He says maybe he should get his deposit back. I smiled and said that I was thinking exactly the same thing, and got his cash and handed it to him.

He left with a bewildered look on his face, seemingly not able to process why I wasn't upset about returning his money. I was never so happy to lose a job and see a customer leave!

Fortunately this was a rare occurrence, and the majority of my customers (including commissions) are great people.

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It will probably be alright.

I feel for you guys who are dealing with the buying public. No matter what business one is in, every now and again a client has to be fired. It stinks, but there's no way around that fact.

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George :-)

My smile has become wider and wider as I read through this thread.

In my real life (as opposed to my fantasy life building instruments) I have a small veterinary practice with a wonderful staff. Like anyone who deals with the public, we get our share of unreasonable clients.
About 20 years ago I got fed up with the abuse a few of the clients would give my staff, and decided we would “fire” a particularly problematic one. Since my receptionist had borne the majority of the abuse, I said she could have the honor of telling them to take a hike if she would like to.
Long story short, the effect on her and the rest of the staff was so surprising and beneficial to everyone’s frame of mind, that we have a practice rule, and it is mandatory. Every 6 months , one client must be thrown out of the practice and told to go elsewhere.
The staff pick who. It has been the most amazing psychology experiment I’ve ever seen. Everyone’s patience with difficult clients is improved, just knowing “I could toss this person out if I really needed to”. A lot of times the challenge of deciding who goes is from the staff finding excuses for the client’s behavior and reasons for giving them another chance.
Probably the best business decision I’ve made in 40 years.

My wife is an AHT for 37 years at the same practice, and the stories she tells me on a daily basis of clients antics is mind boggling, yet they don't often tie a can to any of the worse offenders. I'd be going at the client list with a weed wacker, if it were my practice!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

My biggest problem early on was dealing with the tire kickers that would call and email constantly and then after wasting a lot of my time decide they couldn't afford a guitar right then.

I then ran my commissions through the store where I sold in Mpls. The owner was a pretty strict businessman and wouldn't even talk to clients more than once unless he got a deposit. I was not a big enough hardass to do that.

Worked pretty well and for the most part people were happy but I got tired of the stress and having to build what other people wanted.

I also came to believe that commissioning a guitar is a bad way to buy a musical instrument. You have money down, you've followed build photos, developed a relationship with the builder and really really want to like the instrument. Odds are you will keep it even if there is a tinge of doubt. After the honeymoon wears off things may clarify in a positive or negative way. Even with the big names no two guitars will be the same.

I think buying off the wall, new or used, a guitar from a maker you admire, affords a much more objective environment to make a valid judgement as to whether it really speaks to you and will be a long term keeper.

Now I just build for the store, sales are good and as a 70 year old who is not totally supporting myself with lutherie it has been a good compromise.

On the other hand- if John Pizzarelli showed up at my door wanting a guitar I'd be all over it like a dirty shirt.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

In my real job as a lawyer, we get the occasional toxic client. Sometimes you look back and think that you should have been able to predict it, but often, there are no telltale signs before you start the work. So, our goal, once we find out it is that type of problem, is to end the relationship as soon as possible, even if it means writing off a lot of income we think we deserve. We have learned that getting toxic clients off the bus ASAP, at a loss, stops the bleeding and saves much more money and aggravation in the long run.

All clients have their quirks and imperfections; I'm not talking about those folks. I'm talking about the clients who won't take your advice, micromanage the work in unproductive directions, then want to cut the bill. We get those folks off the bus ASAP, because we have learned that , with this type of person, it only gets worse; never better.

I have been building actively for about 15 years, doing mostly commissions for the last 10 years. I have made many instruments and gotten a lot of experience with things that I would't have otherwise, so that's good. On the other hand, dealing with the occasional difficult customer etc. can be exhausting, which is one of the reasons I have stopped taking new commissions. When I finish my waiting list, I'm going back to making only what I fancy (can't wait). Selling them has never been a problem anyways, so I don't see the point in the extra stress.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I did commissions for many years, and turned down a number. As much as you'd like the commission, you have an "ah-ha" moment when you remember the first troublemaker and say to yourself, "As much as I need the bucks, this guy is more trouble than he is worth. I always had a clause in my contracts that said you could change anything until I cut wood. I also had a $500. non refundable deposit, so I was available for any questions.
The worst case I ever had was a "bit actor" on a TV show. Everything was always fine as I sent him photos of the construction. He was getting what I called the "Poor Man's Loar" and every time I sent him photos, he would say "Great!" and then point out 1 or 2 minute difference between the PML and a Loar. What he was doing was comparing it to photos of an old F5 Loar and pointing out the differences. This went on for some time and I actually started completely over at some point to cosmetically change something that was minor ((curve on the upper point). He was once again happy, but soon after started criticizing again. I managed to complete the instrument, and I installed a set of tuners that he had bought. I emailed him photos and he said beautiful. I shipped the instrument to him and asked that he tell me that it arrived in one piece.
I never heard from him for two weeks and then he emailed me and said I would be getting the mandolin back in a couple of hours. Sure enough, the mandolin arrived, and when I opened the box, I discovered that he had taken the tuners off and taken the bushings out with a pliers. The whole peghead finish was ruined. He demanded his full price + shipping both ways.
I talked to a couple of lawyers and they said basically, the mandolin was his as he tried to return damaged goods. I sent it back with no notice. I must have been very lucky as the package was signed for by someone else, so he had to accept the instrument. I emailed him to tell him he had no claim and never heard from him. He must have been on the set...

Thanks everyone! .The grinder stories keep coming. This client also insisted on supplying his own backs, FB, headstock veneer. After reading these stories no more custom commissions. Glad I got rid of him early , as I saw which the way wind was blowin !

I, too, don't do custom, Ernie. Here's my business model:

1) build one for me to keep and play;
2) build one for me to sell, if someone wants it; and
3) build one to give away.

I don't have to make a living making guitars, so this works out fine to support building as a hobby and makes me happy. Like Don Parker, I work at a law firm. I don't want my entire life run by clients.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Here is a relevant church joke for you:

The various Protestant clergy in town like to have lunch together once a month. There is always a time after the meal when they like to share good news in their congregations. Of course, clergy members being as human as anybody else, this can turn into a bit of a brag-fest.

After lunch one day, the time for good news came around. The Baptist minister stood up and said: "We have some great news in our congregation. We had TWO new people join our church last week." Everyone applauded.

Not to be outdone, the Methodist minister stood up and said: Well, we have some great news in our congregation, too. We had THREE new people join our church last week." Everyone applauded.

The Presbyterian minister stood up and said: "Well, I have the best news of all. We got rid of our FIVE BIGGEST TROUBLEMAKERS this last week!"

My point: For those of you who do some commissioned work, you might want to include the following inquiry when you screen clients: Have they tried to commission a guitar before with someone else? If the answer is yes, you need to dig and find out why they left the other person and are coming to you.

That's a fine idea and all - but realistically, it's up to the individual builder to make that call.... There are people who thrive on this sort of client. It's a special business - but people who can do it make a bunch of money doing it....

There are quite a few strategies for dealing with this sort of thing....

One of the ways people do things like this is to have a fee for "Change orders"... When the fellow asks you to change some detail - you send him a quote for it with a signature line... Ok - want me to redo the peghead veneer because you wanted something else - it will cost you $500.00 and add 2 weeks to the delivery. Please sign here.... That sort of thing typically stops the endless barrage of changes....

Thanks

It can be a good strategy!

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Upcharging is a good method for creating more cashflow. But this client wanted more work /upgrades done on already fixed budget price . So when I raised it , he was gone. But yeah if the client was a sincere straight shooter, instead of a manipulator that would work

Clients are people, too. Takes all kinds to make a world. We choose: Deal, or no deal.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince