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I have a woodworking friend who has asked me to make him a guitar. He does lovely wood marquetry and wanted to do a scene in veneer for his fingerboard.
Is there a reason wood marquetry wouldn't work on a fingerboard? The idea would be to vacuum bag it to a maple neck already radiused, then slot it in the CNC machine.
I have seen on this forum finger boards that are completely veneered in shell, and some elaborate wood inlay, but never a fingerboard completely veneered in wood. I suspect there is a reason. Anyone try this before or know why I shouldn't?


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If the instrument is intended to be played and played over time it's not unusual for players to create divots in the fret board, over time..., that exceed the depth of the thickness of wood veneer. The softer the wood the less time this will take.

Shell, mother of toilet seat, etc. have been go-to materials for all of time because of their hardness as well as natural, toilet-like beauty...

Lot's of guitars, often built by amateurs as well as well-known builders have been built decked out to the 9's with ornamental inlay, etc. Most players that I know don't appreciate this though and instead see guitars as tools for musicians not as ornamental objects.

So yeah it can be done, is commonly done, but if the instrument is intended to be a work-horse player veneer is likely too thin and in some cases too soft.

There is also the issue of dirt. Maple necks ala Fender have lacquer over them and it's likely that any light colored wood veneers would benefit from a dirt barrier of some sort.

My sensibilities are minimalist and traditional. I don't event like fret markers and think shell purfling is a little too Liberace.
That said, he does marquetry and wants to incorporate his own work on the guitar. He has an idea for a breaking wave along the fretboard. So aesthetics is not really a part of the equation for me to solve.
Beyond aesthetics, I'm hearing you say wear is an issue. I play guitar to relax and unwind. I need a LOT of relaxing [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES], so I usually "practice" an hour or two most evenings. My friend, well... Not so much. I suspect he picks up his guitar at most once or twice a month.
So I guess my follow up is when you say divots form that are deeper than veneer, is that an edge case for gigging musicians or is that something that happens commonly to all guitars? I don't notice it on any of my guitars despite regular use, but as they all have solid wood fingerboards I'm not sure I would be able to see it.
Anyone out there have links to any pictures of veneered fretboards?


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Wear of course can vary from player to player but there are other concerns as well.

For those of us who believe that guitars are tools for musicians and need to be constructed with this in mind there is also the issue of serviceability as well as having the instrument being capable of being set-up well too.

Although on hobby forums the idea of fretting the board off the neck is widely promoted it's not considered a good practice to many of those who actually work in the trade, me included. Reasons being that the board needs to be capable of being leveled, fall-away induced, etc. prior to fretting. The thickness of veneer could make leveling impossible in some instances without sanding or planing though the veneers.

Down the road and wood moves over time.... releveling the board come refret time is also something that most folks would appreciate that the builder left as a serviceable possibility for their instrument or the alternative may be the thing being relegated to wall-hanging duty prematurely.

I do "get-it" that many folks approach Lutherie from a woodworking point of view and as such want to do cool things in the ornamental sense and also very much enjoy same. Like you I prefer pretty basic looking instruments where the exotic woods are not competed with for their natural beauty and/or to draw one's eye. But I do think that you will never go wrong by building in a manner that never compromises the serviceability now and in time for an instrument and that's the message that I want to promote.

A solution by the way could be as simple as making one's own veneers and making them much thicker. That would address the issues that I brought up and still let your friend participate in the process and ultimately get to where he/she wishes to be. If you can steer them away from light colored woods too you might also avoid the need to finish the fret board as a barrier against dirt, oils, etc.

Have your friend do some marquetry on the guitar body. Somewhere on the top that won't get chewed up by pick wear.

Just be sure to use wood types that wear well on a fingerboard such as ebony and rosewood and similar hardwoods and there should be no problem. If the fingerboard is to be finished then any hard wood should be useable. The amount of playing time needed to wear through even a fairly thin veneer has to be measured in years.

_________________
http://www.cushmanguitars.com/.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Most certainly not my "cup of tea" ---- but some Blueberry Guitars have elaborate wood inlay on their fingerboards.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Yet another consideration when it comes to serviceability is when neck reset time comes and it most surely will...

The process involves removing the neck, of course..., but how necks are removed is on my mind in this case. The fret board extension has to be released from the body and the way this is done is to apply heat to soften the glue.

Some use heat lamps some use heated masses applied to the extension.

An extension with lots of inlay is always at risk of having the inlays either become unglued or burned as well.

You know though there also seems to be a difference these days on the OLF when it comes to what builder's goals may be. Back in my day we were inspired by successful instruments that stood the test of time. This was only 10 years ago mind you.

These days I read comments such as folks don't have 5 years to wait for an instrument to open up or what Cush said above indicating that the damage may take some years so this somehow makes it pretty OK to do. No offense Cush, I simply disagree with you that a problem only developing down the road makes it less important.

To each their own and I can appreciate the various opinions on the subject. I also can appreciate what hundreds of repair clients tell me and show me... when they have to be told that their instrument is basically useless now because the builder did not factor in serviceability or the ability to be repaired in time when they built it.

With my own building I had goals as well and one of them that I posted about in the past was 100 year, heirloom instruments. Not saying that this is what I built, time will tell but I am saying that this is what I was shooting for.

To many of us f*ctory instruments with the plethora of unsound practices such as unserviceable glue used on some imports were never the benchmark for what we considered to be quality. Instead iconic instruments such as pre-war (II....) Martins, G*bsons, etc. were the benchmark because they have already stood the test of time.

Personally I'm going to hold firm in my belief that a well crafted acoustic guitar with proper care should be capable with periodic servicing, neck resets in time, etc. of lasting 100 years or more. Of course furious girlfriends aside, we had one in the shop last week that looked like a pissed off ex shot it full of holes with a BB gun, stuff happens.

But as far as my role in crafting an instrument my belief remains that serviceability is every bit as important as tone, playability, etc. In fact it's one of my big threes that I shot for and in conversations with other Luthiers who do this for a living it's very much a shared list of what's important.

I'm also pretty fast to bow out of anything where something that is important to me is not present... In another thread someone wants someone to build a custom instrument with a plastic fantastic auto-tuning system. How do you think this is going to fair against our 100 year test..... I'll add that the very idea of having someone else having sweat equity in anything that I ever built or build would be a deal breaker for me as well. I want to control the process because at the end of the day my names on that thing and that means something to me that has to be considered against the very idea of why I do this, what I am trying to accomplish, and what my definition of success might be.

Sorry to be long winded, it's my nature... This can be done, thicker inlays, inlays off the neck as Dan rightly suggested, etc. all can make both you and your prospective client happy.

I'll always weigh-in on issues of serviceability because otherwise as Rick Turner once said on this very forum (and others...) if we ignore serviceability we are only building GLOs or guitar like objects. The term GLO stuck with many of us and it's often brought up in our shop by either Dave or I when we have to explain to a SOL customer that the custom, small Luthier guitar that they purchased 5 years ago for $4,000 is now toast or the repair costs would exceed much of the current value of the thing. It happens and it happens often in my experience.

I think wood inlay on a fingerboard is probably a bad idea. It depends on how well the marquetry is done. But if that is what the end user wants to add to the guitar himself then why not? I think that if the player only uses the guitar once or twice a month it will probably not wear out while he is the owner. At that rate even wearing out the frets is unlikely. With such light use expected wear is likely not the first concern. Since the owner is doing the inlay he can probably repair it as well.

_________________
http://www.cushmanguitars.com/.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

So, Hesh, I'm not sure I'm understanding you. You think this is a GOOD idea?...

[FACE WITH STUCK-OUT TONGUE AND WINKING EYE]

I think all of your concerns are valid. A LOT of work goes into hand making a custom guitar, and I would like to believe that each one I make will make beautiful music long after I'm gone. That includes taking a future service into consideration.

The first guitar I made a decade ago came with low expectations. I assumed I would have it around for jam sessions for friends to play while I played my cherished Martin. It came as a real eye opener when I realized it played better and sounded better than any guitar I'd ever played. I respect the instruments I make as works of art, not funky home made curiosities. Maybe I'm kidding myself.
Despite that, there is honestly NO demand for me to make more. I don't understand the people who post that they have five more commissions to get out and a two year waiting list. It's not that anyone has rejected my instruments, I just don't know how you find even one person interested in buying a luthier made guitar. I live in a city of 3.5 million people. We had one high end shop called Buffalo Brothers, and it's gone.
That's a long winded way of saying that when someone comes to me and says, "will you make me a guitar?" I'm pretty excited that I get a chance to apply the years of study and compulsive tool buying. When he adds that he does beautiful marquetry and would like to incorporate some in his design, I'm not incline to flat out refuse.
I did tell him that veneering a spruce top would probably hurt the tone of the guitar. He didn't like the idea of veneering the back because it wouldn't be seen while playing. The compromise seemed to be the fingerboard.
Any guitar that I make will have absolutely ZERO resale value. Who is going to buy a custom made guitar from an unknown luthier that wasn't made for them? That is true for most of the guitars made by us little garage shop luthiers. So he will probably keep it along with some exquisite little boxes he made for his wife and a stunning game table. In thirty or so years, when he shuffles off his mortal coil, it will probably go in an estate garage sale. When it doesn't sell for even $15, it will join thousands of guitars in the landfill.
Given that reality, I'm afraid I don't allow myself the luxury of insisting my guitars be thought of as century defying heirlooms. I am more concerned with issues like: you can't make a clean fret slot if cutting through a layer of glue because... or, frets won't sit properly on a veneered surface because... or, the slight bowing due to string tension is enough to cause delamination... or, even occasional play puts stress on the lamination causing rippling/peeling/separation because..., etc.
Serviceability is certainly an important concern. Nothing irritates me more than working on my car and trying to remove a bolt to service a commonly serviced part only to discover it can't be done with the engine in the car. Obviously, the engineers who designed the engine only though of assembly before the engine was mated to the body, and gave no thought to the inevitable repair.
On this guitar, I will try thinking of ways to mitigate, like using a bolt on design and not gluing the extension on. I've used a design before where the neck angle can be adjusted by the user to good effect. As to finger gunk, I'll explain it to my friend as best I can and suggest he create a design that can minimize or hide the effect. I might also experiment with putting the fingerboard in a vacuum jar and trying to infuse some epoxy into it to harden it.


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The customer is king. But, something about letting him close to your work is a bit unsettling. Especially when this is not his specialty. As I understand it, he wants to do this on a fretboard that u built. As long as it is not glued to neck, ok I guess.

Do I think that using standard thickness veneer for an elaborate inlay on a fret board of a guitar intended to be played at least some of the time AND with the eventual steward of the instrument doing the inlay work is a good idea?

Heck no and I wouldn't do it.... but I'm trying to give you some ideas that might get both you and your customer where you want to go.

With that in mind thicker veneer, perhaps suggesting that the client could screw up, er.... I mean do the inlay work on the body instead as Dan suggested and the last good idea that is yours, rirhett of using a bolt-on neck and I'll add with a bolt-on extension all can make this more workable and as such more doable. Is doable a word....

So I think that you do understand me and again I'm trying to be helpful. After all if I did not think some of the folks here are capable of crafting instruments that would last long enough to even need servicing I'd not be posting.

So yeah this could be done I'm just trying to make suggestions so that this does not turn out like many of the Asian imports with elaborate inlays that are .020" thick at best rendering the needed fret work because the original fret work sucked impossible to do since the board can no longer be leveled. That's all....

Mike nailed my other concern in collaborating with another woodworker only one who has no idea what the functional and serviceability requirements are for a fret board.

Remember I'm the guy who repeatedly says to folks that I believe you should do what ever you want to do. After all with nothing good on TV and a 4mm kidney stone keeping me up till 4:00 am on a work night posting here helps get my mind off the discomfort....

Your first and my first were similar experiences only I am sure your first looked better than mine. Like you I was really taken back by how well mine sounded, a Stew-Mac kit and had no idea that the kit (or I..) would be capable of producing anything beyond what Rick Turner described as a GLO - guitar like object.

I did have an experience with my first that was different from your experience with yours though. After 12 or so guitars my 1st was embarrassing to look at and I wanted it gone. Destroying it didn't feel right so one Sunday evening, garbage night when I put out my trash for the garbage folks to collect I put my first out with the trash as well. Only I propped it up, protected it, and had it perfectly displayed so that the garbage guys would 1) clearly see it and 2) have no trouble taking it for their own use.

The next morning the guitar had been removed from the trash, likely played and evaluated to some degree and then thrown back unceremoniously into my yard and abandoned....

Sheesh.... everyone's a critic I tell ya.....

Anyway you know what you are doing and excuse me please if any of my suggestions offended in any way - that's usually.... never.... my intent...

Wish me luck with my kidney stone that's stuck.... This is my 9th in my life and they truly suck....

I found one example of wood being used for fingerboard inlay. In Larry Robinsons fine book on inlay he shows a banjo neck with a fingerboard inlayed with a wide variety of materials including several different types of wood. The banjo was made for George Grove of the Kingston trio. So this wont be the first time someone has done this.

_________________
http://www.cushmanguitars.com/.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

I wouldn't be against it, but I'd want to put a coat or two of conversion varnish or something similarly rock hard on it to keep it flat, make it wear-resistant, and keep it looking good over the years.

I've seen several examples of wood inlays on fingerboards. I would not want to put anything much thinner than 0.060" and would stay away from the first 7 frets.

Have you considered letting him do the design and you do the inlay?

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'm not that experienced with inlay, but I've been wanting to experiment with a CNC wood inlay technique that involves cutting a male/female pattern using a v-bit. Should allow me to go relatively thick and even radius after the fact with minimal distortions.
I'll certainly suggest the compromise. After all, he's the wood artist.


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At least that way he could do the art but you would still control the guitar build. Good luck however you decide to approach it!

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

"Given that reality, I'm afraid I don't allow myself the luxury of insisting my guitars be thought of as century defying heirlooms."


You might be surprised - I've bought quite a few century old guitars without maker's marks or names. You don't need a label for quality to still show through after 100 years.
Fretboards were once thought of as a normal wear item, and after several levelings and refrets were replaced without too much thought about originality. If your friends fretboard "blows up" down the road replacing it with a standard board would be no big deal.