Official Luthiers Forum!

You dont have to buy to come to the show Bro . we would love to have you bring some work and hang out with us , and I was serious I have a Guitar that needs a wider saddle slot and that would be a great demo . Zeke is coming from Tn. I am not sure where u are in relation .Either way its a good time

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What Dremel did you use? My Dremel 4200 has a .005" runout which is comparable to a drill press. I'm not sure which model you have.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Jim one of the things that we frequently use the CSM for is moving saddle slots. Lot's of 70's Martins had the bridge (already slotted) glued on in the wrong place making intonation an annoying issue with no fix in sight unless the slot is moved.

So we fill the existing slot with matching wood and reslot where the slot should be and all is good. Takes about 15 minutes to do with the filling of the existing slot taking 10 minutes of that time. The mill only runs for maybe a minute if that to cut the slot.

For us this is the kind of repair that helps recoup the sunk costs of the tooling and since we do lots of it our CSM makes us money which is always a pleasant surprise with any Lutherie endeavor... Making money with Lutherie - imagine that...

As a builder too the CSM changed how I build. For example I no longer glue my bridges on worried about uber precise positioning for intonation reasons. Instead I glue on my bridges slotless and then use the CSM to position the saddle slot exactly where I want it. It takes the drama and opportunity for error out of the process.

Another very frequent use for us for the CSM is many of our clients are gigging musicians and some rather famous as well... Often it's the case that these folks have UST issues (no not a STD but an under saddle transducer... ) and the problem is poor balance for the UST output. We frequently find that the existing saddle slot is not flat causing the UST to have varying degrees of contact and pressure on the UST throughout the saddle slot.

Zip, zam with the CSM and the slot is now perfectly flat combined with flattening the saddle and the UST now performs as billed and designed...... for better or worse.....

Although the CSM does not incorporate a tilt feature the addition of a simple, shop-made jig and you can cut tilted slots to your heart's desire. Some Luthiers believe that something like a 7 degree tilt on the saddle handles the torque and vibrational transfer better than the standard arrangement.

Here's another very useful thing that our CSM does for us since we are a Martin authorized repair center. Martin sells to dealers like us bone, CNCed compensated saddles that are OEM issue on many if not most Martin new guitars. The saddles are so well made in terms of tolerances that the variance is very minimal and as such if you can cut a perfect slot you can drop these puppies in for a perfect, snug but never too snug fit. This makes replacing a saddle on a Martin a very easy job. Most of the time we whip out shop-made saddles but for Martins the availability of off the shelf, well made compensated saddles makes maintaining Martins with original OEM saddles a no brainer.

Need to cut a two slot slot for a multiple saddle instrument - no prob - the CSM does it great.

Through saddles are also a breeze and are so very easy to cut with the CSM that I tend to want to use it more than I get to with through saddles....

For Somogyi fans and students where uber thick saddles are desirable you can slot with the CSM any width that you wish.

We also suspect that folks who have CSMs will dream up other uses and teach us all a thing or two as well. Greg is already doing this with using the CSM for tilt saddles.

It's a great tool and has made my life much easier and with less drama on say a $50,000.00 pre-war Martin or a $200 Recording King with the saddle in the wrong location to properly intonate.

The one regret is the discontinuation of the Porter Cable PC-310 lam trimmer which was IMO the best Lam trimmer ever available. We tried all the usual suspects available today and liked the Dewalt a great deal. The soft start is nice too and the unit is pretty quiet as well compared to the several PC-310's that we also own.

As Dave indicated the addition of precision collets and bits brought the Dewalt up to PC-310 tolerances and beyond so it worked out well.

Some fine tools are like a fine French restaurant, if you have to ask the price, you shouldn't be eating there. Not everyone can justify a CSM, but we can all greatly appreciate it's facility of use, and how it would be invaluable in a high volume situation. I'm sure there are a lot us with a serious case of TAS overload! Nice tool, Hesh and David!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

^^^ Agreed 100%

If you have the right skill, you should be able to do just about anything with the minimum of tools. Or at least make your own tools. Spending 100,000 dollars on special jigs and tools does not make one a luthier.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai Fu I get the feeling you somehow don't like or disapprove of my decision to buy this tool. My decision was totally based on being able to very accurately route a saddle slot with the bridge glued on the guitar. And believe it or not I mainly use hand tools on my builds, whether I'm a luthier or not was never a factor.

" Spending 100,000 dollars on special jigs and tools does not make one a luthier."

Wasteing $100,000 worth of time making them does!

I don't disapprove or anything... it's a nice tool but I don't think I can afford it.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai - I cancertainly understand your appreciation for simple and economical tools, but the longer you do this, the busier your shop gets, the more hurdles faced and hard lessons learned - the more you can begin to appreciate the value of better tools.

The idea of making tools like this is actually to remove complications from the work. If you're just building guitars and making bridges off the soundboard, or very rarely have the need to address slots on installed bridges, then investing a great deal of time or money in advanced tooling probably wouldn't make sense for most. For a busy shop with a lot of with a steady queue of jobs expected to meet deadlines however, I can't tell you how many times over having this available has paid for itself in our shop.

Cutting a slot in a new bridge is not complicated with basic tools. There are countless scenarios however (often unanticipated until you are half way in to the job), where we find ability to solve a problem in 5 minutes with no stress saves our butts compared to the time, complexity, and weaker reliability of the old methods and tools.

This is not just about saddle slots - I'm talking about the thousands we have invested in tooling for fret work, probably over $1000 worth of nut making tools alone, easily 1-2k in toolinf for electronics work and testing, again as much in calipers, scales, and other measuring equipment, and the list goes on and on.

Of course you can't start out with equipment like this, and our tooling has been built up to this level over the past 20+ years, and I certainly did my time getting by with minimal facilities. Even though I could still do most of my work with a very basic line of hand tools, I could not maintain the quality at a level of efficiency anywhere near what we do with our current workload. In other words, although some may seem a bit extravagant or superfluous, I guarantee you that every investment and upgrade was borne out of necessity, and directly contributes to bringing more money back in to the business than was paid out toward it, certainly more than could be made without.

I can do some pretty complicated math or draw up some architectural designs with a paper and pencil. I can dig a pretty deep hole with a shovel, or even my bare hands if you give me enough time. Does this make expensive computers or excavation equipment superfluous and overly priced and unnecessary purchases? Well it depends on who's doing the math, plans, or digging the hole.

Some simple basic tools may suit your needs just perfectly, but this does not follow for every shop. I've been through the basic tool phase, and can accomplish a great deal with very little. That said, and having been there, I can state unequivocally that I could not accomplish before, what I can now with this setup. I couldn't have invested in something like this 20 years ago, so I got by with what I had. A point was reached however where the investment proved to be necessary and beneficial (and that's even after considering that I made a much bigger initial investment in making this than we're selling them for today).

Everyone's needs and priorities are different though, and I would absolutely agree with you that not everyone needs something like this.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Hopefully a little south of a PLEK, price-wise:)

I do wish that I have enough work to need to invest in time saving tools. I was never even close to that point however.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Yup, roughly 2% of the price of the Mr. T starter set PLEK including training and support.

Tai Fu I wanted to make some suggestions since I followed the other thread where you are discussing your Aspergers and the troubles that you are having finding work.

First the suggestions and encouragement that you received from Jimmy and others in another thread I would wholeheartedly second. I have several folks with autism in my life including in my family as well and as such I know first hand that there is nothing, for the people that I know, stopping them from not only functioning but functioning at very high levels including being capable of some things at a level beyond what folks without Aspergers could accomplish. In the three cases that I know of all three folks have worked very hard to advance and tended to be forward looking and thinking in their personal outlook instead of complaining or taking stock of what is perceived that they do not have.

Not being critical and again trying to be helpful.

My primary suggestion to you even though as you said you read FRETs.net and learned all about Lutherie is to keep an open mind to the idea that as John Hall rightly says you don't know what you don't know until you know it.... More specifically I'm a partner is a very successful Lutherie business and getting new business is not a problem that we have. We do it all too, even though some things I'm not all that keen to do...

Every day I see as a learning experience AND an opportunity to learn more with the default position that I hold being that I am always learning, will always be learning, and will never stop learning. If I had the point of view that I know all about this this stuff I would be selling myself short and remain blind to the possibilities that there is far...... more....... to....... learn.......and.......do.

Next get yourself a credential. By credential what I mean is something that represents a measurable accomplishment that others will find value in. Working for a Master Luthier, going to Lutherie school, working for Bill Collings (also a Master Luthier) or any guitar producer is a credential. Going to Robbies community college, Redrocks or the Galloup school or even working for a music store and holding your nose all the while will in time produce a credential for you.

Next and again not being critical here and very much trying to help - beware of digital footprints. Today's savvy hiring manager is very Internet savvy and will comb social media, forums, etc. looking for the impression that he/she can obtain from reading about your personal participation with social media. Questions on these folks minds may be is this guy a positive sort or a complainer.... does this guy bust through adversity or see adversity as an excuse to quit. How does the prospect get along with others... and are they a leader, follower, team member, loner, etc.

Although I'm the first to hate social media for the intrusion and overlap that it can have between someone's personal world and professional world the reality is that we are all being checked-out far more often than we may suspect because folks are basically curious. Apply for a job with someone and that curiosity becomes an important exercise in due diligence so as to not waste finite organizational resources and money on the wrong person for the job.

Regarding hiring managers I was one for decades and have hired personally thousands of folks in my life. My impressions of the approach, what I want to see and hear, etc. are not at all unusual for hiring managers since we all had the same objective in finding the right person for the job AND shielding the organization from any unwanted liability that may result from hiring the wrong person for the job.

If you lack the coin to develop the infrastructure that would lead to you having a successful Lutherie business hook-up with someone else who has that infrastructure in place such as a music store and earn that credential so that one day you can say that you repaired X number of instruments, maintained a 100% satisfaction level with clients at such and such music store. Or go back to Collings and bust though the gate keeper as the other guys have suggested. Be warned though.... if you get Bill's attention you had better have a pretty good story to tell and perhaps some show and tell too with examples of your capabilities or you are asking him to trust a stranger. Also keep in mind that Bill or anyone for that matter may need someone to do the work as they wish it to be done.... not as we might approach it.

I changed careers and as such had no more advantage than you do and in some senses since I am now old, moldy, can't see well, have multiple hernias making Les Pauls painful for me to work on etc. if I can do this I see no reason what so ever why you can't. My past credentials meant nothing to the Master Luthier who I spent three years with doing what ever he wanted me to do AND for no pay what so ever either....

I know that you don't like me and I know that we have had our misunderstandings in the past and this is EXACTLY why I am trying to help you now. If I could help find you a suitable job I most certainly would too and even discussed you with someone this past Friday. I'm not as dumb as I may look and very much try to help folks every single day.

I do see a passion for Lutherie in you Tia Fu and that passion is shared by us both. You will find your way and I strongly suspect that if you do what it takes by having a positive outlook, seek to earn credentials or what ever it takes that you will do well in time. Remember too that Lutherie careers are usually a life of living pretty small as you would say. Nothing wrong with this either if this is what makes you happy. At this stage of my life I live small too and love it. I wake up every Monday morning and can't wait to go to the city and fix guitars - I love it! When I come back to my rural home at the end of the week I am stress free for the very first time in my life. Lutherie is a very worthy goal and my hats off to ya for wanting to be a part of it.

Please do consider the idea of obtaining credentials, having a positive outlook without complaining at least in the public view, being aggressive in your pursuit of credentials or employment, and keep an eye on the digital footprint that you leave in so much as it may be forever and hiring mangers more often than not simply will X you out of consideration if the impression that you leave on the Internet is negative.

Hope this helps and feel very free to PM me if you think that I can help you in any way.

I'm sorry for being complaining all the time. I am used to doing it because complaining is often a way for someone to air out frustrations that he sees no possible solutions and it's simply his way of seeking help. It's an annoying way and I will say it causes bad impression, but it's also very easy to do when one is left without options and no help is in sight.

I feel like I've accrued plenty of credentials however I'm not looking to go to a luthier school, because I am going to go back to University of Texas at Austin for Geology, and I think there's better future in that than guitarmaking, and it's still something I like to do. (Oil/copper/iron isn't going to get any cheaper so they are always going to need Geologists) Plus I don't think I can get Federal Financial Aid for going to Robert Venn's or any other luthiery school so I wouldn't have any other way to finance it. I have a much better shot of a good career studying at UT as well.

Quite frankly hiring practices leaves autistic people at a severe disadvantage because the impression garnered at internet searches, interviews, etc. are very limited and some people are VERY good at lying during interviews so it still does not prevent hiring managers from hiring a bad worker or worker unfit for the work. I know for a fact that autistic people make very good workers (they tend to work very hard) and their gifts can benefit any companies tremendously. The unfortunate fact is MANY autistic people, high functioning or not, have trouble getting jobs not because they can't work, but because they often do poorly at interviews. Some have to get SSI because of this. It is a very real problem that hiring managers need to be aware of. Fortunately some companies have taken to hiring ONLY people with autistic tendencies (they would do tests to find out) because of their "superpowers".

I do not claim to be a master luthier or that I know everything there is to know about it, but I'm confident enough about it that I know even if I am unfamiliar with a particular master's method, I can learn quickly. I don't think Bill or anyone else will be able to find many in Austin with this set of abilities. I wish I was better at "showing" that however.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai I was just doing some looking on the Internet in the Austin area and there are a LOT of music stores in Austin including a Guitar Center as well.

I was thinking what I would be doing if I was in Austin, your age, and going to school (good going by the way, Geology is always going to be a hot field for we energy hungry humans). If it were me I would put a resume together, take an instrument that I built myself with me and hit the stores and even Collings in person looking to get a few minutes of someone's time.

One of the best ways to "show" your chops is with physical examples such as a guitar that you built. When I was looking for repair business for my first repair business that I started I took one of my guitars to every music teacher in town and sat down with them and bull.... well you know.... The teachers got me a lot of business.

Anyway I think that you have a great plan with geology but also think that you could have a lot of fun, make some money if you were successful in getting a Lutherie job while you are going to school.

Where our shop is is a college town too with 50,000 students. Employers know in advance that college students will need flexible schedules and that is usually not a problem. Employers also know that the students are "passing though" so-to-speak and usually will do what it takes to accommodate class schedules, etc.

If you don't have a resume that would be my first step, something to leave an impression when you are not in front of someone.

Tai, like Hesh, I changed careers later in life to follow my passion. While not nearly as successful yet, I am glad that I did. His thoughts on looking for repair work through guitsr stores is right on. Even if you don't stay with aparticular store, if your customers can see your dddication and ability they will be your best advertising and will follow YOU wherever you go.

Regarding financial aid for school, Roberto-Venn is an accredited school of luthery and aid is available. I got a student loan to go back there again (I was an early student of John Roberts in 1972-73 while in high school), and am grateful for the opportunity to pursue this later in life.
Quite a few accomplished luthiers have graduated from there including Jason Kostal, Michihiro Matsuda, Jason Lollar and Scott Walker.

If you have the inclination and ability as well as the time, Luthery school can be a great jump start.
Best of luck to you Tai and meep at it.

UT has one of the best Geology programs in the world, and since I'm applying for readmission (I left in good standing) it is usually automatic.

I have a portfolio made up of my works, but however since I don't have a car I can't find a way to carry completed work around town looking for stores. I've gone to Guitar Center and however the manager wasn't there (I guess he's never there), the other music stores weren't interested in luthiers even when I showed them what I was capable of (they have 20+ year veterans working there). I need an "agent" to find work for me... Like I said I am capable but since I suck at interviews, people don't hire me.

At the moment I have no completed work, just a half finished purpleheart/redwood guitar. All my completed work went to customers.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

All of Guitar Center hiring requires completing an online application first. The call and ask to speak to the manager about any possible positions. I personally know the current tech there (another RV grad) but they may have use for additional help. Is there no public transportstion in Austin?

There is, but it's so slow it cannot be relied on at all. The easiest one for me to get to is the North Austin one in fact, because I can take the UT shuttle to UT and then take bus 3 to get to GC but it's quite a commute. I've filled out an online application at GC for both guitar centers (they all have openings for tech) however it has absolutely nothing in the application about your work history, ability, etc. instead it's a lot of personality test type questions.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

When you speak to a manager is when you will have the opportunity to tout your abilities. It may be a commute, but either you want to work at what you love or you don't. A defeatist attitude will get you absolutely nowhere. You must be willing to do what it takes to get started. The interview is your next step. You have suggested that personal interactions are difficult for you. Being a Guitar Center tech demands that you use some people skills every day in dealing with customers. I have followed your posts and have seen what you can do when you apply yourself to a challenge. Go for it.

Ok, I'll go to the GC the next couple of days and see if the manager is there...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

A big thanks to Craig for helping Tai Fu!!!!

I'd give Collings a shot.
I don't know what the scene is like there now, but when I was there 15 years ago, the shop had lots of people with unusual life stories and personalities. some on their second or third chance in life. They have a history of starting people off and letting their hard work move them up.
Steve McCreary is one kind hearted guy and, although Bill can be an absolute bastard, he's squishy on the inside too and can certainly identify with those who have a non stock personality. To say he is results driven is an understatement. I think he is suspect of those who give too good an interview.
Anyway, maybe it's not the same there any more and they have some huge ruthless HR department now but it can't hurt to give it a shot. Bring in your best work or photo's. I brought in the first guitar I built in my friends garage. It was still un finished. Bill smeared chicken grease from his lunch on it as he looked it over and I got a job.

There's no realistic way for me to commute to Collings unless I get a car, or at least a scooter. I think GC may be a better bet because I can go there by bus.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com