Official Luthiers Forum!

Hopefully I'll be able to show one of them on a guitar this year, Bryan!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

No, I want a full report on the joints after they have been guitars for 50 years. . . You'd better let me know when they are done so I can edit my calendar

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Ok, ok! You can be such a bear at times, Bryan! You'll have to use a Mayan calendar or something!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I have a day planner that uses the Mayan calendar. I ordered the refill for it quite some time ago but haven't gotten it in the mail yet. I've been using my phone in the meantime.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I like to use West Systems epoxy for this. For some reason it seems more logical to me to use it over tite-bond original. (which I use for almost everything else) I like that it doesnt get a ton of moisture in the joint and I also trust the epoxy to stay where I put it.

Ok Bryan, or anyone else, which lamination to TB1, Fish, and polyurethane glues?



Alex


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Those look nice. I can't wait to see the middle one with finish on it. That think white like next to the hog will look nice!.

So having used all three glues at the same time, which did you like most from a process standpoint (since I'm sure all three will work just fine structurally). I'll take a guess:

1) fish
2) TB
3) PU

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

The titebond was the easiest to use, but it is similar to the glue that I use for cabinetry work, so that's likely the reason. The fish glue was messy, but I had a bowl of water and a rag to clean my fingers. The polyurethane went well, but I'm not used to wearing gloves, so I found myself fumbling a bit, and I still managed to stain my hands!
I've done so many laminations over the years for panels, table tops etc, that I am very organized. I drilled holes in the ends of the lams for alignment pins, so once the glue was on, I was clamping right away. Using a glue roller instead of a brush makes glue application quick.
Over all I think I liked the fish glue best. The long open time didn't mater so much, but I like how it dried to a glass like hardness.
Oh, you were 0 for 3, Bryan. Sorry. Would have been a snap before I jointed and planed!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Next time you use PU just clean your hands with alcohol when you are done. Keeps the stainig down.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

It's also possible to use HHG on such laminations, even though it may seem a little scary. A warm shop, a few heat lamps and crank the glue up to around 190F.
I once found a way to glue 24 strips of veneer (for rosette tiles) without the glue gelling before I could get the whole thing in a clamping jig. Previously I had been using powdered resin glue, with it's long open time. I didn't like the colour of the glue joints though. Fish was much better but it took more than 2 full days for the glue to set! I got it down to 4 minutes with the HHG, from the moment of putting the glue on the first strip to finished clamping. Mixing, brushing and cleaning up with the resin glue was taking more like 15 minutes.

Different stroke for different folks -- but the last thing I want when making a multi-layer lamination with veneer layers is to be on the clock -- (and we have a dedicated fixture) slow setting is your friend. Heck, even the manufacturers know the wisdom/value in this concept, that's why they have "extended" formulas. Time marches on, guitar makers are allowed to take advantage of new technology there's no shame. $.02

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Sure. Use whatever glue you feel comfortable with. I was simply making the point that it is possible to do a seemingly complex glue up even with HHG. I would never have thought it possible to glue up my 24 strips of veneer but after a few trials it actually became a better (much faster) procedure with simple clean up. I didn't feel hurried at all. It became a very efficient way of getting the job done, especially since I had 20 sets to do. We can also use some of the properties of HHG to our advantage, such as spiking the glue at an elevated temperature for a few minutes. Powdered resin glue also gives a fairly long open time but clean up of any brushes and mixing vessels can be a bit nasty once the glue thickens a little. There are plenty of choices.

I was going to try that, Bryan, but I ended up drinking the scotch instead.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

So you had stains on your hands but didn't care anymore. . . I suppose that approach works just as well.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I use titebond original in most cases. Maybe epoxy for certain situation. I have experimented with gorilla glue and pretty much stay away from it these days for guitar building. Yes it's an amazing glue if you need to glue different materials to each other with high weather resistance. But for guitar joints I like my glue lines hard. Not spongy. Polyurethane glues when dry has a spongy consistency. It doesn't dry hard. I don't like that for tone transfer.

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Another day, another dollar.

Gorilla glue is a terrible excuse for a PU glue. The elders product foams much less. Every joint I have used it on was veery well clamped and no glue line visible at all. Nothing I would ever describe as spongy; the squeez out that foams is spongy but the joint is not. . .

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

GG is great where you need gaps filled, but it's very messy. I haven't used it for any guitar laminations but have for cutting board. One joint failed, btw, after submersion in the sink.