Official Luthiers Forum!

Great points Hesh

Lets face it experience is gained more from a failure than a success.

In my shop repairs come in to 3 designations

1 structural
this means making the repair stable and to withstand the load that will be applied
2 Appearance
On modern higher end instruments more time may be taken to make the repair as invisible to the naked eye as possible
3 Museum quality
this means that the repair is 100% reversible. The repair may in fact show that is not an issue , the end point is that the repair can be reversed should a better technique be discovered. Often Museum pieces may not be playable but they are restored for appearance and historic value. When they can be restored to playing condition they are.

Many time information in forums can be confusing . Like Hesh I have learned a great deal and often it may be not to do it that way. This is not to insult anyone but lets face it , only after a few repairs or builds you will often see that what you believed in the beginning you can see the error of your ways.

We are here to share experience , good or bad. Learning is on going. So many things I wish I had learned 10 yrs ago and the more I have learned , the more I see I have yet to learn.

I look at guitars as Hesh , we are the caretakers for the next generation , so they can be passed along.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Sounds like a good use for very thin carbon fibre mat and superglue. I have experimented with this stuff ,and it has a million uses. Side reinfocement strips, under the bridgeplate, crack repair etc.

Thanks John and I could not agree more with you!

Here's another example of what I mentioned about what's frowned on with the collective knowledge of a Lutherie forum that is in fact too narrow a view of the subject.

If I told you that there is a time that epoxy.... can be a great solution to a top crack many of you would wish to disagree. One of the top shops in the nation uses a technique where they use epoxy, often tinted to match the top, to secure a top crack that has been opened for a long time and will not close with any amount of humidification.

When I first heard about this I too thought what sloppy work using stinkin ep*xy on a gutiar top. Then I saw it done once, twice, (no three times a lady jokes please... ) and the results were superb. No trace of the crack, a very structurally secured repair, happy clients, and all within a budget that was fine with the client. Of course there is always the "appropriate for the instrument" thing too.

Same holds true with CA. Lots of us want to look down our noses at CA use on top cracks or CA use anywhere on a guitar. I was once an anti-CA snob too....

But.... just like with anything Lutherie all repairs are different and it is the analytical ability of the Luthier with hopefully an open mind too that can introduce options that just may be the best fit for the job.

These days I use CA in a few places on my own stuff and occassionally in the repair world too. Five years ago this was not the case..... Live and learn but always keeping a keen eye to the merits of reversability and just exactly what opperations need to be reversable and which ones need not be.

As such when someone asks how to do this or that and this includes building too I would HOPE to get lots of different answers that may even conflict with each other. This is not a test in high school where we are checking a stinkin box....

I know lots of repair Luthiers and enjoy the hell out of nearly all of them. A common thread that most all of them have is their analytical ability to reason out a solution backed by lots of experience and of course the chops too to get it actually achomplished.

I once asked a Luthier how they would approach something. They told me that they don't know. I thought to myself "don't know" and somehow had expected better thinking that they could go to that mental SOP (standard opperating procedure book) and pop off an answer.

A day later they approached the repair and had reasoned it out over time. It's important to note that this ability, the ability to reason out solutions based on the exact job at hand, seems to me to be pretty critical in this trade. Most important though it also results in lots of options in how we approach something.

When I made the jump to light speed and decided to hang up the corporate stuff and attempt to be happy for the rest of my days my hope was lots of direct client contact, very interesting work, variety, lots of music, cool tools and jigs, and to be surrounded by my musical heros. So far it's all that I had hoped and much more. Most of all though with David in the shop it's always interesting too. He is constantly pushing the envelope and in great ways too. Much of the technology that we use in our business was invented by David and is unique in how it works and also in some cases provides us with unique capability that no one else has at the moment.

What I left off my list of personal hopes from my own pursuit of Lutherie was lots of cool stuff to learn and get interested in too. Thankfully Luthierie will always have areas that are interesting and one just can't ever learn it all anyway.

This is a retirement gig for me and how I want to spend the rest of my days enjoying the Lutherie biz and clients and being surrounded by great music too. I am reminded of Hemmingway and a clean well lit place.... I found mine and one out of two ain't bad....

A bit off topic but I heard a quote yesterday from Warren Buffet's partner Charlie in which Charlie is not as free with advice as Warren is but Charlie is well known to say "I want to know where I am going to die so that I don't go there...."

"This is NOT rocket science. Good thing too, because I would hate it if a guitar exploded 20 feet above my bench."

Hesh - that deserves a place on the side of a monument somewhere!

Ed

In this short video, Dan Erlewine demonstrates regluing a loose back brace with titebond. He shows how he removes the old glue, how he wedges the loose spot open, how he keeps the inside of the guitar clean while slopping glue and how he cleans everything up afterwards. You can see a good, even line of glue squeeze in the repaired area and he also cleans that up before quitting for the evening. He does most of this with shop-made tools. I think you'll get some good ideas on how to approach your loose top brace:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjfQHsngzOQ

" This is also why when I read a post where someone is critiquing previous repair work and being critical I always know in advance that we just can't know what the mission, budget, dealing with the current steward, etc. was like for the previous repair person."

+1
I would rather deal with a piece poorly glued than missing.

Very interesting and useful thread! This has demonstrated what is good, and not so good about web forums. Chris, I am no expert by any means, with only general woodworking, a handful of violins, and two guitars under by belt, but I think I can offer some general advice, for what its worth. (and remember it was free!)

Some really experienced and accomplished luthiers have offered differing opinions of glues. (surprise!) Take some scrap spruce and model the brace/top joint on three or four set ups. Try letting some HHG not quite set and pull them apart to simulate the condition you have, then try re-gluing with HHG, fish, titebond, w/wo heat and see what produces the results you're happiest with. I did this when I first started using HHG on violins to convince myself of its strength and "un-do-ability". (and re-glue-ability) Some might go so far as to call that a "scientific method", but I prefer "gaining a working knowledge".