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Hey Y'all,

Glues.... for years I have used the LMI white glue as it really dried hard and was pretty reliable. I say "was" because, from what I understand, the actual manufacturer changed hands and went to another plant. Not only did the manufacturer change, the quality did a 180!! So much so that LMI dropped them and went to another yellow glue. The bummer is that I had a few glue failures from the "bad batch" and I am basically eating it to fix the problem units (one was in Canada late last year and one was in Taiwan earlier this year - I'll leave the logistics to your imagination! I am in Southern California)

Anyway, as you can imagine, I am back on the market for glues. Titebond creeps and not nearly as good as that white LMI glue (pre-change) was. I tried fish glue but read some rather disturbing accounts of it not taking loads well. So, I am getting into the hot hide glue (HHG) thing. After a couple hundred units done with either Titebond or LMI White, I think I am in danger of becoming a HHG snob . HHG is something I avoided just because the prep seemed high maintenance and I am not a huge fan of the "Dirty socks on steroids" smell associated with it (though I am learning the better ones are not so bad). That said, I am relatively new to HHG process and just ordered some glue and hot pot (the crock pot with "warm" and "Cook" settings were a bit too wild for the 145 degree thing). So, any of you Veteran builders have any thoughts/experiences on this HHG thing?

Well, I might not qualify as your definition of veteran, but...

HHG works. I could care less about the smell. Irrelevant.

I dislike the short open time but it can be dealt with.

I've found it to be way more forgiving in temperature than legend holds.

HHG is cheap, it's easy to make small batches, has a long unmixed shelf life, you can charge more for it...

Really here's not much to say against it, if you don't mind dealing with he fiddly aspects.

HHG and Fish glue are what I use.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

HHG is the best solution, and I don't really notice the smell.
I have a friend who swears by Elmer's plain old carpenter's wood glue and he has been a mandolin builder for many years. I have tried it and it is better than Titebond, not rubbery. I have a bottle of the LMI new glue, and so far, not really impressed. I did like the old white LMI, but I only used it for things such as kerfing and laminations. I may go back to Elmer's for such uses.

How long after gluing an x brace on the go-bar deck with HHG can you remove the clamps?
When the glue is back to room temperature is it safe to remove clamps?

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

I like to leave it undisturbed for at least 8 hours. I usually do overnight. You have to preplan more with HHG. I have all my bracing fit and then glue it all up.

I've been thinking for a long time now of starting to use HHG as well. I have one more bottle of the LMI white yet. I've avoided using HHG and Fish as well for all the said reasons. I started using Fish a year ago and have nothing but good to say about it. The long clamping time can be an issue. I've not had any problems using good old Titebond though. From what I understand some luthiers are going to Titebond Extend as a replacement for the LMI White. Has anyone ever used the white Gorilla glue before?

Another Fish/hide glue user hear, Over 100 instruments and zero failures. I use HHG for bracing and the Fish where I want more open time. Also use Lepage carpenters glue (yellow) for a few of the non structural joints (headplates). With some planning I find I can work around the different gluing/clamping times without it slowing me down.

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

I'm just an amateur and have only been using HHG for a few years, so I can't help you there. As a veteran internet user, I recommend you consider trying the search function.

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George :-)

Hot hide glue and fish glue here. In terms of bracing, I take it out of the go-bar deck after 15 minutes. f course I don't start hacking away at braces immediately, but if you give it half a day, you'll probably be safe.

If you really want to stay away from hhg and fish glue, I find the Lee Valley glue to be pretty good. I don't know if it's up to the standards of the original LMI stuff, but in 10 years of making furniture, I never had a problem.

Steve

I've been using it about 7 years. Plate joining, braces, bridge plate, and bridges. Unibond 800 for laminating. LMI white for all else until it's demise. I heard good things about Tightbond extend and have used that as a substitute for LMI white. It does dry hard and brittle like the LMI stuff. So far I'm OK with it.

Hide glue? My experience-

The Hold Heet pot is rock solid and a good investment if in for the long haul. It can be adjusted. I'm usually around 145

A heating blanket or plate warmer to warm your braces/bridge,bridge plate prior to gluing

A heat gun to heat the surface or edges when joining.

Mix small amounts in little plastic squeeze bottles with a bolt in the bottom to allow it to float upright in the pot. For me the right consistency is just enough distilled water to almost cover the glue. If too thick just add a little water later.

The tent and tape method of joining allows quick application and joining the edges when time is critical.

A toothbrush in your hotpot is a good way to scrub residual glue when cleaning up. Dry with a paper towel and heat gun.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Fish glue & the new Elmers Carpenter glue.

Mike

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Mike Collins

I've been building for a number of years. I've not been an active participant in this forum in the past, but I hope to change that.

I use hot hide glue for almost everything now, and have been for several years. Once you figure out its quirks, it really is the best glue for musical instruments.

Here are a few thoughts about its use:

1. Buy good quality glue. Cook a large batch of it, separate it into little plastic squirt bottles (like 2 ounce bottles) and freeze the bottles. There are no single glue-ups on a guitar that take more than a 2 ounce bottle of glue. When you need to glue something, get a bottle out of the freezer and dunk it in a warm water (140 degrees) bath. You will have glue in 5-10 minutes. Bottles can be re-frozen a few times without it harming the glue.

2. I made my warm water bath out of a hot plate, a stove pot, and a cooking thermometer. Take a day when you have other things to do in the shop. Heat some water in the pan, using a setting in the middle of the hot plate's adjustment range. See what temperature the water is. Adjust the setting until you get a consistent temperature of 140 degrees in the water. Once it will stay at that temperature, mark the adjustment setting in pen. That is the setting you will use forever. I use a wire coat hanger to clamp the neck of the squirt bottle and force the rest of the bottle under the water. I have been thinking about building something more elegant.

3. The parts need to fit (really fit) in order for the glue to work.

4. Some tricks for increasing open time: Heat the parts with a heat gun (don't singe them!); use more glue than you think you need, thereby creating a little pool of heat; do dry runs ahead of time until you can get everything clamped in half a minute; use alignment pins and the like, so you don't have to monkey around with the parts for too long after applying the glue.

5. After the squeeze out gels, clean it up by scraping or wiping or whatever you want to do, but do it before the glue dries, because it is a BEYOTCH to clean up after it dries. This is a testament to how good of a glue it is; it dries hard, and it really bonds to the wood. But if you catch it while it is still either liquid or gel, it is very easy to clean up.

6. Only joints that are inherently stressed will need to stay clamped for any longer than an hour. Even those are probably OK after an hour. Don't wait too long to unclamp and clean up, because it will shock you how fast the squeeze out turns from liquid to gel to leather to granite. Seriously.

7. A saving grace on the whole clean up thing is that dried hide glue residue does not create as big a problem under a finish as dried aliphatic resin glue residue. In fact, you can use hide glue as a partial pore filler and the finish will still behave pretty well.

Good luck! Hot hide glue is awesome.

If you really want to stay away from hhg and fish glue, I find the Lee Valley glue to be pretty good. I don't know if it's up to the standards of the original LMI stuff, but in 10 years of making furniture, I never had a problem.

Steve[/quote]

Are referring to the 202GF glue, Steve? I can't remember when I didn't use it for cabinetry. I've tested many glue joints with it, and have always had wood failures. I pretty sure someone here on the OLF uses it for guitar building. Tom West, maybe?

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Thanks for all the responses!

I have tried both the Elmers and the Gorilla (wood glue). They work, however, I have seen evidence of creep over time... The Gorilla has this crazy cinnamon smell to it....

I should point out that what I am building is not your typical "guitar" but guitar formatted violas called "GuitarViols" (Modern Arpeggiones).
The acoustic models are, in essentials, structured much like violins or cellos (with some aspects of Viola Da gamba). I do use modern guitar kerf lining though in the past I used to strip layer it like classical guitars or violins. The back plate is well braced and the top is arched with a bass bar (as you would expect to find in violin family instruments and there is a cross grain patch (spruce) veneer to reinforce the sound post area. Like violins, cellos, a tail gut (not literally gut) is in place and that pressure can introduce creep over time - which is another reason glues are so critical to the structure in this case! The bass bar is under significant tension (with 6, not 4, modern tension D'Addario Helicore cello strings - a mixed set). Just like acoustic guitar builders who have a concern for bridge creep over time, my biggest three concerns are the top creep at the tail, the bass bar, and the neck heel (a different story - if there is an "Achilles heel" (literally) in violin/viola,cello,bass viol design, it is the neck heel! - I am sure more than a few of you have repaired such instruments that have snapped at the neck heel. The elevated pitch angle - not seen on guitars - has an amazing level of stress! For that reason, I beef them up in the construction process...). I don't use epoxies for the same reasons most of us don't: it's irreversible. Neck laminating (2 or 3 piece necks) may be the exception. Bottom line is that my particular instruments (acoustic variety especially) are under even more intense tension than their violin/VDG cousins) making the glue job way critical.

Correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that HHG has longer open time in 100 degree weather? (typical So Cal summers)The opposite of typical aliphatic glues! The summer, those who know me steer clear of me when I am focused "in the zone" with the glue up of a top under those fast working conditions where a lot can go wrong in seconds! In the winter it is way slower open time but I wind up heating the work space up a bit.

Anyway, I appreciate the "Glue Talk"

2 or 3 more of these hide glue threads and I might have to give it another try. The one and only time I did use it was a comedy of errors. I actually have picked up a Hold Heet since then. A couple of questions.

All the smaller top braces I'm sure wouldn't be a problem but I don't know if I could line up and go bar an X brace in under one minute. If you heat both parts does that sound pretty doable?

Does anyone use it for gluing on linings? I'm pretty sure I couldn't glue on a lining in under 3 or 4 minutes. And what about tops and backs? I don't think I could do them in under 5 minutes without making a mess with glue. For both linings, backs or tops I use fish or Titebond with a brush. Minimal squeeze out and pretty clean. If I was in a hurry to get the hide glue on I could see where it could get pretty messy.

And bridges. I usually use 5 individual clamps on a bridge. I might be able to do one in 2 minutes. Is that doable with a bit of heat on the parts.

Might be time to give it another try, even with a perfectly good bottle of Titebond sitting there.

Guys I don't trust myself enough to consider HHG. I realize from all the pro's on here it's benefits. However,that fast open time just puts me out of the equation. Maybe someday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There has been lots of discussion about how to prolong the open time for HHG by heating parts, heat lamps and other methods. When bracing with HHG I always work with a heat gun at my side. If I'm not able to position and clamp the brace in 10 seconds than once I have it clamped I run the heat gun along the joint until I see the glue that had jelled soften again. Then I know I'll be ok.

I know a few builders who use the LeeValley glue (2002), however because of the high solids content I have always stayed away from it.

_________________
Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

X-braces are actually pretty easy to glue with some planning. I use a go-bar deck, which helps.

When you have the lap joint all fitted place the braces where you want them with no glue. Use a couple of go-bars to hold them down. I have several pieces of 1/4" acrylic plastic with straight edges that I've rounded over that I go-bar down next to the braces to locate them. The rounded edges help keep the glue from wicking in underneath. One has a point that goes into the intersection to fix that on the center line. When everything is ready, pick up the bars and make sure you can drop them into place quickly.

I actually glue them one at a time; the lower one first, and then the upper one. Put a line of glue down on the top where you've marked the center line of the brace, and also butter up the brace itself. Put BOTH braces down, and go-bar the lower one in place. Pick up the upper one, and clean up the glue squeeze out: I find the trick of cutting a straw off at 45 degrees to make a pointed scoop works really well. Once you've got the squeeze out from the lower brace glue the upper one in. Remove all the locator blocks and clean up.

You certainly do have more working time as the temperature rises. It can go as low as 60 degrees F in my shop in the winter, and at that temperature you have to be pretty quick. At 85-90 F I feel like I have all day. I've seen some pretty neat tricks for extending working time. Once, in my old basement shop that was REALLY cold in the winter, I needed to do some centerline cleats on a fiddle back that was off the instrument. I put the glue down, dropped the cleats into place without worrying about it gelling, and took it upstairs, where I stuck the back into the microwave for a few seconds. Microwaves heat water, so all that got warm was the glue and thew wood around it, and it stayed warm enough to get the clamps on.

Don Warnock, who taught lutherie in the Boston area years ago, used a strip of dead soft aluminum when gluing on liners. He'd brush glue on the liner and on the side and allow it to gel. Then he'd clamp the liners up with clothespins or small clamps, with the aluminum strip, which was a bit more than an inch wide, iirc, on the outside edge of the side. When he'd got everything located to his satisfaction he'd use a small alcohol fueled torch to heat the aluminum strip, which stuck out below the clamps, until the glue melted. It was easy enough to see it run out of the joint when it did.

A 'cello maker whose name escapes me will size the surfaces and allow the glue to dry. He clamps everything up, then removes a few clamps at a time and injects steam to reliquify the glue. This would be really handy in repairs where you have to get things lined up just right.

Once you get used to the way it works HHG opens up all sorts of possibilities.

The first back I glued on with HHG there was a 1 1/2" section where the glue gelled before I got the clamp on it. I used the steam trick to reliquify the glue and it worked very well; first time I tried that one.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I think the cello maker referenced by Alan is James Ham. There is a great article about his method of gluing plates to sides in American Lutherie #109. I haven't had the chance to test it out, but it sounds cool.

X braces are not hard. Heat the parts with a heat gun, create borders for the parts and the glue (I use blue painter's tape), use more glue than you need, work fast, do dry runs. It all works out.

For linings, one way to beat the clock is to cut the strips into pieces the size of a single clamp and glue them on one at a time. I've done that without a problem. With regular kerfed linings, it looks fine. Reverse kerfed linings would probably not look good that way.

I actually use hide glue on bindings and purfling strips, and it comes out OK. I use an artist's brush, glue a little, tape a little, glue a little, tape a little, and just keep moving. It is important that all fitting has been done beforehand.

For gluing tops/backs to sides, I do it, but this is where working with dished workboards helps a lot. I precisely (and I mean precisely) fit both the top and the back dry before I glue either one. I glue the top first, with the face down against the workboard and the braces facing up. I heat the parts and use plenty of glue, with blue tape creating borders for the glue. I put the sides down, then I put the back workboard on top of the sides, and a heavy weight on top of the back workboard. This creates plenty of clamping pressure for the task at hand. You really only need the parts to fit with each other and touch each other. If they do that, and there is plenty of glue, it all works out. After clean up (and there is a lot of clean up with this method), I set up for doing the exact same thing with the back. It is on its back against the back workboard with the braces facing up, plenty of glue with tape creating a border for the glue, the sides go down on top of that, and the top workboard goes on the top, with a heavy weight placed on the top workboard. Let it sit for an hour, come back and clean up. If all the parts fit, this works out just fine.

For bridges, as with everything else, the parts have to fit right, create tape borders for the glue, heat the parts, use more glue than you need, position, clamp, work fast, then clean up. It all works out.

It takes more effort, but it is worth it.

I should add that positioning parts is easier with hide glue than with aliphatic resin because hide glue is a much less effective lubricant than aliphatic resin. In other words, the parts don't skate around as much with hide glue. Aliphatic resin seems hell bent to make things move around; hide glue tends to park parts where you place them.

WOW. I really appreciate all of your helpful replies! Thanks! Really!

Thanks for the tips! I've got one to brace up today and I will plug in the Hold Heet and give it another go. I was recently reading one of the very well interesting Nigel Forster blogs that talked about trying something different. It does make it more interesting.

Good to see some new folks here also. Welcome gents!

If you have the time, spend an afternoon testing it out on scrap pieces and after they`ve cured for an hour or two, get them apart to see if it works. That`s what I did.
Keep in mind, though that pieces and parts must mate up perfectly. If you try clamping harder and heating it back up to make the bond, you could starve the glue joint.
Frank Ford`s site has a good article on this if I`m not mistaken.
I use it on structural parts of assembly and use Titebond on the lighter stuff.

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Give me 50 cents worth of regular.
Check my oil too, if you don`t mind,,,