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I am sorry if I sounded defeated but I still don't think my point was understood.

I do understand the markup that suppliers get for selling back and side sets and that is their bread and butter so to speak. And I see there are a number of sites that sell 4/4 to 12/4 lumber specifically for guitars. The links that were posted are some that I bookmarked in my searches for "tonewood billets" so I know they are out there. I rarely start a thread without doing my homework so it isn't as though I was asking anyone to spoon feed me.

My question and the reason I made this post was because I am not exactly sure what makes good tonewood from bad. I very much appreciate the replies I got and especially the post by DennisK. I have been working with wood off and on almost all of my life but mainly building furniture and other things like casework so I am familiar with wood but just not instrument grade tonewood. I am not an expert by any means...

I also understand that most of the links I found are not selling the top grade wood but I was hoping someone here would be able to point me in a direction where I wouldn't get screwed buying junk wood. I not opposed to spending money to get decent quality stuff so I am not trying to do anything on the cheap or trying to get something for nothing by buying wood and cutting it up to sell. My main reason is so I can learn and see for myself without cutting up some crap wood and building a guitar out of it only to later say "OOPS" I guess that was the wrong choice of wood. I also don't want to cut green wood and let it sit for 10 or more years... I am 60 years old and don't want to become a lumberjack... and I don't want to choose my tonwood from a standing forest.

As I said in an earlier post, I have spent a lot of time at Woodcraft and have found a couple of pieces of wood that I know will be good but I would much rather be able to have a reliable source that I can be reasonably sure of what I am getting.
A great example is this:

I will only buy bracewood from a supplier on Ebay, (I will not mention his name because i don't want to go against the forum rules and take business away from some of the sponsors here) he was recommended to me by someone and I bought a small quantity for a guitar I was repairing. The first thing I did was split a couple of the braces and the splits couldn't have been more straight if I cut it on a saw. I have since bought a few bundles from him and the quality is extremely consistent. I know I am paying a lot more than I would somewhere else but I would rather know I am getting quality than buying on the cheap.

So maybe that explains my question a bit better and gives you an understanding of what I am actually asking. I don't expect to be cutting more than a few sets a year but I do want it to be dried and of decent quality. I may end up selling a set here or there but I am not planning on making a business out of it.

I need to start somewhere and want to be somewhat confident I am not chasing down a dead end trail.


Again, Thanks for all your replies and info.

Cheers,
Bob

James and Kevin just spelled it out .. it takes time to source and find what we would call insturment grade lumber .... most lumber places, includng exotic shops, dont have a bin of stuff called instrument grade - unless its already cut into sets. If they do know what to do with the good stuff when they get it, then they pull it aside, and cut it up into sets and sell them themselves .. why, because there is more profit in sets than selling plank lumber at per bd ft prices. If they try to sell it at a premium, as James and Kevin just mention, then we dont want it, as most builders are cheap - we like to find bargains, and save money where we can.

So, you need to get out and look for the bargains, at places that dont sell alot of instruments sets, so they dont cull the shipments for the best boards as they come in .. then you get to find them, and pay the same per bd ft price as the stuff that guys use to make tables and beds.

I was just at the Ottawa guitar show a couple weeks back, and on my way home, I stopped in at the wood dealer who was one of the shows sponsors, just to see what they had as I had never been there before .. they had some tops, and a few limited back and side sets which I looked at, (bought one engleman set that was underpriced for its grade, the rest were avg and I left them), and lots of plank and flitches of lumber .. thats where I went and spent an hour looking around .. what did I find ??? well, some rift sawn, ribbon figure with beeswing flame african mahogany ... two 6/4 - 8' long planks had in them - 3 harp sets, 3 guitar sets, and one electric body blank (for use with a maple cap for a thicker body, or an SG) .. for 260 bucks - but not everyone can look at those boards and see that - the owners of the shop certainly couldnt, but they arent guitar makers. Was I looking to buy wood .. not really as I have quite a stash, but when the opportunity for a good deal presents istelf .. strike - you never know when you will see that again.

Did they have other stuff .. sure, some quilted maple body tops, not cheap though, lots of walnut ,probably some quartered in there, didnt look at that too hard as I dont use plain walnut, also some nice wide nogal (peruvian walnut) but mostly flatsawn, but if you like quilted figure, thats where to look for it .... you just have to go and look, you never know what you 'll find !!!!

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Great post, Tony. Thanks for sharing. I, like many here, am still trying to figure out how to look at lumber and see guitar parts. It's tricky and I have a long, long way to go.

A friend of mine is doing some cabinet work in his home and I recently tagged along with him on an outing to a large local lumberyard. I am currently a bit obsessed with finding North American alternatives to the exotic stuff we all use so often. Well, after poking around for a while I detected a particularly strong, spicy fragrance hanging in the air. Hmm... I followed my nose around the corner and found a small collection of Port Orford Cedar. Bingo! I looked through the stack and found a nice chunk that I think will yield at least four neck blanks. Now, it may be that I wasn't seeing the wood correctly and I won't get a single neck out of it. Either way I figure it will be a lesson well worth my $25.

_________________
George :-)

Off track here , but a reply to Ed Bond I had purchased 2 gtrs from michael dunn. Van BC back in 1972 -3, cedar tops and BRW backs .Back then it was rumoured that he scavenged Kits beach for his gtr tops. I/ve met woodcarvers who scavenged WRC from the beach , and carved indian masks , which they sold to tourists nearbye. I/ve salvaged wood from downed trees in our subdivision, gotten wood from friendly neighbours. Picked up discarded piles of offcuts from small sawmills by rummaging around .Mahogany at yard sales. Beautiful white oak from folks clearing out barns.Woodworkers estate sales lacewood for peanuts. Craigslist for woodworkers who need to sell and are are moving out of state etc. etc.

In order to evaluate the wood to determine suitability for instruments, you need to have a firm handle on grain orientation and flaw identification. What you want to find is material that is clear of flaws or wildly undulating grain changes. And you want to find wood that has the grain orientation you desire. Remember, a lot of the exotic hardwoods develop cracks and checks during the drying process -- this isn't as big a deal for furniture building but for lutherie, it is a deal breaker.

For back/sides, I like to find billets that have at least 5" of perfectly quartersawn grain.

I STRONGLY recommend not messing with soundboard material unless you really know what you are doing and you won't obtain the level of information needed from a forum. Everything else, however, is very doable.

There are good deals on eBay but local wood dealers will be your best bet. Gilmer Wood and other similar businesses often have great material but you will pay more of a premium. Also, I would advise thoroughly vetting the dealer and making sure they run an ethically responsible business -- in other words, a lot of the stuff on eBay is probably illegally acquired - it doesn't mean you will get in trouble but as builders, I think most of us try to be ecologically responsible.

If I can be of any help (regarding resaw and drying techniques, additional sources, etc..), feel free to call me. You can access my phone number through my website (google Fay Guitars).

Best Regards

Hi Bob,

You mentioned Woodcraft Supply-They are really geared toward "hobby" woodworkers as far as what I have seen in there wood dept.

What I have done to find "good quality" wood for resawing is gone to a local boat lumber place near me (for 40 years)-M.L.Condons lumber in White Plains NY and picked through their racks. I have found plenty of quarter sawn Honduran planks for backs and sides and 3" thick flatsawn planks for necks. I have also gotten some real nice birdseye maple and quartered white oak and walnut there, and if I get lucky I show up when a shipment just gets there and get some real nice boards-they go fast! They also have "exotics", but over the past few years the size has gotten really small and the quality less and less although there ebony is still pretty good ( I think it is up to $ 70 a BF though).

If you look at the last guitar I posted ( Goodman Leadbelly 12 string) the back, sides and neck came from this yard

I am sure there are many lumber yards of this quality near you.

Regards,
Brad

I'm an electric builder, so my requirements are not too strict and based mainly on appearance.
The local hardwood stores I have been to appear to get material that has already been culled.
Or, buyers have an insight when they receive a new shipment and scoop up the good stuff.
Maybe if I a good rapport with the stores, I'd have better luck.
I build mainly with local woods, but it would be nice to try some Khaya. No locals sell Mahogany anymore. Woodcraft is way too expensive for my needs. I have ordered billets from Gobywalnut and have been pleased with the wood and the shipping costs.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Hmm! The only lumber yard I know of around here was 84 lumber. But it went out of business and moved away in less then a year. I have heard of locals dealing in hardwood for floors.


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You may have to go around a larger town but find out where the cabinet makers are getting their wood.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Ok thanks Steve. I do know a cabinet maker. When I was building my drum sander I needed a piece of Formica. Talked to the local building supplier. He said no bigger a piece then that you need to talk to a cabinet maker they probably have some scrap laying around. Gave me the address of a fellow about 5 miles from my house. He had a piece of scrap that was perfect for what I needed. Asked no money for it. Said he'd just throw it away. He was a cool guy. Maybe I can get a lead on something.


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The guy I worked with in the late 70's classical guitar teacher that was friends with Michael Dunn and had a guitar that was made from cedar "driftwood" that you are talking about.I seem to remember it being a 4 or 6 piece top.

I made my first carved mando from maple firewood-still sounds great to this day.

Thanks for the info guys, I have located a couple of local saw mills that I am going to contact and see if I can get hooked up with them. My friend who had a lumber dealer that did all the kiln drying has gone out of business. They handled mostly flat sawn hardwood and I have gotten a lot of wood from him in the past. That is one of the reasons I started this thread. But I contacted him and he gave me a few saw mills that he said I could probably get what I was looking for.


As you know I am not opposed to asking dumb questions so here is one for those that know.

Is all figured wood riff sawn or flat sawn? When quarter sawing do you actually see figuring or is it mainly straight. Most of the highly figured wood I have worked with (on furniture) has been either Flat sawn or Riff sawn. I have not worked much with quartered wood before working on guitars.

Thanks for all your help and info guys,

Cheers,
Bob

In maple birdseye and quilt figure show on the flatsawn face, but there's plenty of figured wood that is also quartersawn/vertical grained. Curl especially can be really nice in quartersawn maple, walnut, and all kinds of other domestics.

I am 59, and I still cut green wood. Hardwoods season slowly, particularly in thick pieces. That is why I cut it 1 to 2 inches thick and air dry it for a year or so, then resaw it. If you cut green hardwood thin, there is a good chance that it will warp into potato chips.
The extra time that thicker hardwoods take to dry means that they are almost invariably more expensive than 1" lumber. Since backs and sides can be reliably cut from 1" lumber, there is no advantage in buying thicker hardwoods....other than the fact that the extra drying time means that they are less likely to have internal stresses.
I do cut local hardwoods from split quarters, but that is because of my experience with cutting red spruce. Also, I only have a resaw bandsaw that is fed by hand...no portable sawmill. That means that hardwood quarters longer than about 3 feet are too ungainly to handle by my process.
I have split many figured woods, and only the most intense curl is a problem. The way I look at it, curl that intense has so much localized runout that it is not advisable to use for instruments anyway.
Others have pointed out that finding someone who will sell QS instrument wood in thick form will be a challenge, and I agree. The way I look at it, selling a hardwood billet for instruments means that I have put in 90% of the time and work, for less than a 50% return (25 to 30% is typical for that scenario). Why would I do that?
Gilmer has been suggested as a source, and I have had good experiences from buying their wood and resawing it....even wood that is not listed on their website as luthier grade. However, it is more expensive than just going to my local mom-and-pop exotic wood supplier.

No. 'Fiddleback' figure (parallel stripes) occurs when the wood is quartered or rift sawn. The 'tiger' stripe in oak and the lacewood figure in sycamore only occurs when the wood is perfectly quartered (vertical grain), because it reveals the large medullary rays.
Quartersawn wood is preferable to flat sawn for instruments, because it moves about half as much for a given change in moisture content. More stability is better, both for consistent action and resistance to cracks. However, if you build a guitar properly (meaning assemble the body in an environment that is as dry as the guitar will ever see), then the chance for problems is minimized....even with slab-cut wood.
Choosing the more stable domestic woods like cherry or walnut (as opposed to maple) is another way to avoid problems.
The other factor in stability is the age of the wood. Older wood is more stable. Even at my age, I still think in terms of rotating my stock. The way I look at it, even 3 or 4 years old is better than new wood. Long ago, I developed the habit of writing dates on my wood. If I didn't cut it from green, that means the date I acquired it. As a result, I have some wood that I know is 30+ years old, because I have owned it that long.

In 1994, I cut this local curly cherry that had been damaged in a storm. I split the billets, then cut 1" boards and 3X4 blocks for necks. The neck blanks were then sawn from the blocks and allowed to dry for a few years. I have resawn some of the boards, but most are still in 1" form.



Finding wood of this quality is difficult....hence my decision to do it myself.

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John

Hi Bob,

If you are ever in the area you might try Armstrong Millworks, 3039 W Highland Rd, Highland, MI 48357, 248-887-1037. They are nice folks to deal with and they have some interesting stuff, ie. Spanish Cedar, Honduran Rosewood, Bubinga and Bird's eye Maple. They are not set up to resaw for instrument sets, however. You can Google their website for more info'.

Best wishes,
Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

John,
That is a beautiful looking guitar. Lots of Cherry trees here in Michigan, I may have to find some

Thanks for all the info on how you get and prepare your billets. I have been making calls to some of the saw mills in my area, I got a list of them that I am in the process of contacting so I am hopeful I will find a couple that can help me. I did contact one that did mostly posts and pallet wood and they didn't do anything like I am looking for but he did say if I brought him some logs he would quarter saw them for me so that is a possibility. I guess I was hoping to not have to store wood for a few years before I could use it but if as you say I can store it and use it in 2 or 3 years that wouldn't be bad. I also have a few names of some tree service guys that my be able to help me out with sourcing out some logs. I guess I am fortunate living in Michigan because we have a wide variety of trees and an over abundance of them.

Max,
Thanks for that connection, It is only a couple hours drive from me so I will probably contact them. It looks like they have a pretty nice facility and are willing to do small orders. The big saw mills I have contacted don't want to do small orders. The last one I talked to had some quarter sawn Walnut but 400 bd. ft. was the smallest order they would do and they won't let you choose what boards you get.

Thanks again guys, I am making progress on finding sources and with the help you have given me about what to look for and how to process it has been a huge help.

Cheers,
Bob

I've been researching the same thing and have found what is already written. If it is in billet form, sold as musical grade, it will carry a premium. By the time you cost in your shipping, labor, yada yada, the overall price per set is pretty much a wash. Possibly even more expensive.

I went to Windsor plywood the other day to tire kick. We spent an hour in there looking at everything they had. Most of the wood I looked at made me ask 'who can even make anything outta this crap?'. Knots, warps, cracks, crazy grain etc.

There was however, a perfect Khaya board. Perfect for me is 7' long, 11" wide, 2" thick. This will yield a maximum of ten sets. Of course I had to have it so I bought it instead of paying the hydro bill.

I asked to see the head honcho. I asked when the wood came in, how it was sorted, who sorted it, could they order stuff specifically, could they keep an eye out for things and such...

No no no no no. Most of the time I couldn't even finish my sentence. He was so clearly not interested it wasn't even funny.

Perhaps other yards will be somewhat different, but it is not encouraging really. I'm rethinking the wisdom of dropping 3k on a resaw setup...

"I'm rethinking the wisdom of dropping 3k on a resaw setup..."

Doing some occasional resawing can be fun, as a distraction from guitar building. If you count the time to source and process the wood it may not be as cost effective as it first appears. You might try using your smaller saw for resawing rather than investing in a dedicated resaw setup.
After you spend a day or two resawing the "bloom may be off the rose".

Resawing is certainly possible with a fairly typical saw ... I have a delta 14 with riser, 3/4 hp, and use R&D bandsaws industrial blades, 1/2-3t for resawing .. yesterday a pal and myself cut up some bubinga, cocobolo and some of the figured african mahogany I bought while at the Ottawa guitar show .. using two $20 blades, we cut 5 sets of bubinga (board started at 2 inch thick, 5ft x 11 wide), a bubinga electric cap, 3 sets of the hawg and 2 sets of coco .. the 2nd blade could still cut more, we just stopped for the day ...that was about 2.5 - 3 hours of cutting, with some time for setup, as I was trying my l'il ripper resaw jig for the first time .. it works not bad.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Stop it already. Makes me want to investigate further.


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Good thread lots of great info. You might look for a regional luthier that has a reputation for building with local woods. There are a few in Minnesota. They could be helpful.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

That is why I bought the saw I did. I bought the Laguna 14" SUV which has a 3 hp motor and a 14" resaw capacity but is not meant to do full time resawing. At $1700 it was a good compromise for me. I only plan on doing a limited number sides and backs but it will also handle every day jobs with ease.

That is why I started this thread... I have the saw to do it and I was looking for a reliable source of 4/4 or larger wood.

Fortunately I am still working on my shop and don't even have the saw hooked up yet. The building process is not going as fast as I had hoped. I keep forgetting I am not 40 years old...

Cheers,
Bob


P.S. @Terence, Thanks for the suggestion, I have not done that as of yet but it isn't a bad idea.

That is the very same saw I want to get. But it's 2500$ CDN with a resaw king plus taxes, so close to 3k...

Bob I have the same problem. Not being 40 that's for sure. Lol


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I am not sure if they ship to Canada it is on sale now at woodcraft for the same as I paid which is 1699, and a RK is an extra 228.75. With the Canadian exchange it would be a hair over $2,100. I can't imagine shipping and duties would be $1,000

Here is the link:

http://www.woodcraft.com/search2/search.aspx?query=Laguna%20SUV

I have not even cut anything with my saw yet but it is all put together and ready... I can say it is a very solid machine and well built.

@Lonnie, I would be happy to be 50 again... I got a bum shoulder and bad elbows so things are not as easy as they use to be... I can still do all the things I did at 50 but just a lot slower...
If I was 40 my shop would have been done and I would probably have had a couple of guitars done by now. They say with age comes wisdom but the reason they say that is because when you move at a snails pace you have more time to think about what you are doing wrong...

Cheers,
Bob