Official Luthiers Forum!

I am looking for a reliable source for tonewood billets or 4/4 lumber or thinker.

I am specifically looking for American woods like Maple and Walnut in thicker stock for re-sawing sides and backs.
I would also be interested in some Mahogany or other exotics but mainly American woods.
I have found a few sources by using Google but not sure about how reliable they are or the quality of product they sell

I would also be very interested in a local company in or near Michigan. I am finally getting close to firing up my new bandsaw and would like to locate a good supplier.

Thanks for any help you can give,

Bob

Gobywalnut.com

_________________
wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Any sawmill you can find.....

http://www.mapesfurniture.com/

I drove by this furniture factory in Sunfield Michigan. I could not believe the amount of lumber in thick slabs they had in the yard, including walnut. I expect if you approach them nicely, they might help you find some wood, if not in their yard, perhaps from a supplier. I don't think they get much premium for curly walnut in factory furniture, so they might part with some readily.

Check your local craigslist for terms like lumber, hardwoods, walnut, maple. . . You never know what small time operations you will stumble upon.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I guess I should have emphasized the "RELIABLE" part of my post.

I know I can easily find places to sell me wood and as I stated in my original post I did a Google search and found a bunch of them.

My point was I am looking for someone that I can trust that knows how to cut tonewood for instruments properly and isn't going to sell me any old hunk of green wood for exorbitant prices.

Since I am new to guitar building I would like someone that can help me, not just take my money.

I am also assuming that back and side sets should also come from a split billet to reduce or eliminate runout? And it should also come from aged wood and not from a green log.

So these were my reasons for asking about a reliable source that some of you have used and have had good luck with.

Cheers,
Bob

http://hardwoodemporium.com/ Located near Pittsburgh PA. Expensive shipping to Canada, but reasonable in the states.

Rusrob- I live here in southern MI, Hillsdale County. I have a couple VERY reliable sawmills/lumber suppliers near me that I have dealt with. You can sort through and pick your own. Walnut, cherry and maple, for sure. Quartersawn or flatsawn. If interested, let me know via PM. Pals, Vic.

try http://www.Gilmerwood.com

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

Not trying to be an arse but I think you need to learn what good wood is - detecting excessive runout, weird grain that equals internal stresses, etc so you can find it yourself at any reputable hardwood dealer.

In my experience it's a lot easier to find it when the boards have been planed and the ends cut so you can see all the grain.

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

ah, yes, tonewood...now there's a word. A marketer's dream for unsuspecting, gullible people. You can pretty much build a guitar from any wood that is suitably dried, some more than others. At one time, quarter sawn was all the rage. Bet, you don't hear that much anymore. What now passes for ' bearclaw' was once discarded. The point is that people who sell wood for building guitars are in the money making business. And there's nothing wrong with that. And naturally, they want to sell the best products they can. But don't be fooled by the language used in the business. A great guitar can be made from local woods, such as walnut, maple , birch, etc. If you live in coniferous forest areas, lost of wood for tops. Y'know, there's not a whole lot wrong with a four piece top or a three piece top. You can make it work both aesthetically and tonally.

_________________
Under Compensated Nut!

I'm in the same boat. I'd like to get into resawing, as I go through enough wood to crave the savings. I'm willing to pay a premium for decent billets if I can get the savings from resawing myself. The thing is, even much of the stuff at PJ White, Reimers, Windsor Plywood etc is absolutely useless for guitar making. Most of it makes me wonder who uses it, and for what? I recently had to sort through two entire lifts of mahogany to find a single board worth turning into back and side sets, and this was sifting through stuff Jean Larrivee had imported and left behind.

So, if someone has already culled the chaff and set the useable stuff aside, I'm into it!

Thanks for the replies and the links gentlemen. I know I could (and have) spend many hours looking through wood at lumbar yards and supply houses but I honestly have better things to do than sort through a boatload of bad wood. I do have a pretty good understanding of what to look for in a piece of wood for any project or job so I am not a newb at wood working.

I do have some learning about what makes a good tonewood so that is why I am asking for a reliable source that knows how to prepare and cut wood for instruments. The links you have suggested are great but I have not heard anyone say "this guy knows his stuff and I have never had a problem with him. Posting a link with no comments is a bit like me just choosing any link on Google and hope for the best.

I am pretty sure you can't just build a guitar that will last 100 years or more out of any old hunk of wood. I have fixed up enough cheap poorly made guitars and worked on some high end quality instruments to know the difference. I am more interested in building a relationship with a supplier so I don't have to sort through the piles of general woodworkers stock. A perfect example, I have probably spent about 10 hours in a number of visits to Woodcraft. Out of all that time looking I have bought 3 boards from them, two boards 4/4 Peruvian Walnut that is nicely quarter sawn and one piece of Mahogany that is suitable for a neck or two. I would much prefer to be spending my time doing more productive things.

For those of you that do know, I have a couple of questions...

I think I understand that quarter sawn wood is preferable to flat sawn. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the reason is because the way it expands and contracts? I am assuming that flat sawn or riff cut wood cut that thin is more likely to split than thicker stock.

Do most suppliers that deal in instrument tonewoods split the logs to reduce runout? I know that most soundboard and braces are split billets but not sure about sides and backs.

Any other info about choosing wood would be a great help. Since I am a newb guitar builder I have a lot to learn.

Thanks
Bob

No.
It's not so easy to split wide and long hardwood logs.

_________________
Lance Peck

I think you're starting to understand why Tonewood in quotations is well worth the extra cost. Experience person has already done the hard work of sorting preparing sawing properly stacking and drying. And in addition to that sometimes even aging or curing.
You will need to establish a relationship with a knowledgeable person. However the person with knowledge can prepare the Tonewood in quotations themselves and charge the appropriate markup. So what incentives would they have to sell you their goodwill for much less than they could benefit.
I have a relationship with a dealer. He has all the good stuff. He knows the value of his product. I In turn I'm willing to pay for his knowledge and sorted so that I don't get suboptimal wood. By the time it becomes an instrument it's well worth the added cost.

Certainly not trying to discourage you from establishing a relationship just trying to point out the value of a good Tonewood dealer.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ken

_________________
Ken

Also you can't split figured wood. The whole point of splitting is that it follows the grain, and if the grain curls the split will follow it and you won't get a flat piece.
Not saying B+S have to be figured of course...

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

My whole point of starting this thread

I am not looking for cheap wood or advice... I am just asking for info about finding a reliable source that some of you may have used before...

The way you make it sound is this is some secret squirrel club that only the chosen ones can join...

Thanks for that info guys. I really wasn't sure if it was split or not.

Cheers,
Bob

Rob,
I think you're missing the forest for the trees. (Yes, pun intended.) The "reliable" sources you seek make a majority of their profits in the final stage of processing, which is the step you are hoping to circumvent. Imagine it takes them 365 days to see an ROI on their expertise, labor and time. Why would they sell you their select, high quality billets on day 364?

It seems to me that what you are looking for here is a short cut and what people are trying to tell you is that there isn't one. The way to source billets is to go out and find some logs. That's the hard part. Cutting plates on the bandsaw is the easy part.

That's my take anyway. Maybe I'm wrong.

_________________
George :-)

I agree with George. Its not that hard once you know what you are looking for. Certain dimensions, a certain cut (closer to quarter the better) , any defects? Part of the game is knowing that some of what you get is not going to work out. Most of the good deals out there are billets that a factory would reject because it's not perfect. But, if you can make the size work or work around a knot etc. You are good to go!

_________________
Pat

Ok, I guess am missing the point. Sorry for the dumb question...

Thanks for all your answers and ideas anyway.

Cheers,
Bob

+1 to George and Pat. The big advantage of having your own resaw setup is that you can use wood from unreliable sources, i.e. opportunistic hunting. There's good wood all over the place, but it takes an educated eye to spot it among the rest.

Gilmer sells instrument billets ready for resawing, but the price per set is still pretty high. I don't know of any tonewood suppliers in Michigan, but if there are any good ones, they'd probably be the same. There's some money to be saved in doing the resaw work, but more to be saved in finding the wood to resaw. I have the opposite problem as you, that I'm always running across good wood, but don't have the tools to process it So my recommendation is to go out somewhere like that furniture place wbergman mentioned and buy one or two boards, slice them up, build a guitar, and start developing your eye for good guitar wood. When you need a reliable source, just buy already sawn sets from our forum sponsors. The rest of the time, keep your nose to the ground and you'll probably find more than you could ever use

As for tonewood criteria, back/sides are the most forgiving part of the guitar. But still, the ideal is quartersawn for the full width, straight grain, no runout, no knots, no voids or drying checks. For necks, I make that a requirement. If possible, store your neck woods in a non-climate controlled area for a year, and check them with a straightedge in the summer and winter to see if they bend every time the humidity changes. With open pored woods, most of the time you can spot the bad ones by looking at the sides of the board, where you can see any curvature or runout in the grain as shown by the angle of the pores. Runout is ok as long as there's enough thickness to plane it out. Curvature is bad, because it usually means bending when the humidity changes. If the angle of the grain is different on either side, then it's probably from a spiral tree and will bend and twist when the humidity changes... very bad for necks.

You can also see runout on the face of open pored woods, by the length of the pores. High runout = lots of pinholes. Low runout = long lines.

For sides, knots can be trouble in bending. Particularly in quartersawn wood, because branches grow from the center of the tree outward, so with perfectly vertical grain, a knot will be a long line all the way across the board. Here's an example of what happens: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43767
Rift/flatsawn, small knots can usually be lived with. They'll usually crack, and the side may kink, but you can fill the little cracked knot with CA and sand it flat.

Knots in backs are less troublesome, but still usually avoided. Especially big ones, that could fall out and leave a hole. Unless you want to do some experimenting with natural soundports Also, gluing braces to knots would make a weaker joint. And with a super flat shiny finish, the different moisture expansion of the knot will be visible as a little ripple most of the time.

The advantages of quartersawn wood are less total change in width for a given humidity change, and remaining flat. Flatsawn woods, will usually cup one way when dry, and the other way when wet (due to the changing angle of the grain lines across the width). With bookmatched backs, it results in an S shape across the width. Though once you've got them thinned and braced, they'll usually remain conformed to the dome of the braces and rim. Quartersawn woods will also cup when brought into a different humidity level than they're acclimated to and set on a flat surface so only one side can exchange moisture with the air, but they'll usually flatten back out once acclimated (not always, though, and this is why stickering is important, because it allows both sides to exchange moisture with the air, and having weight on top helps keep flatsawn woods from cupping as badly)

The big advantage of the "less total change in width" is indeed less cracks. And you can actually double your benefit by building in lower humidity as well. If a flatsawn guitar built at 40% RH doesn't poof up too badly in 70%, then a quartersawn guitar built in 30% won't either... and probably not even in 80%. So with quartersawn, you can extend your low range tolerance without losing high range tolerance.

For sides, flatsawn woods will try to cup when bending. I don't think it's usually much of a problem with heating blanket setups, but on a hot pipe, if you let it get started cupping, it just gets worse as you go. Best trick I've found is to press it flat against the pipe with a wood block to make sure the whole width of the side is in contact with the pipe and thus heated.

Good thread Bob I learned a lot from it and that's why I'm here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To answer your question, I seriously don't think there are any unless you want to pay what I consider rip off prices.

If you know how to detect decent candidate wood - because you never know what you have until it's been sliced, I'd recommend finding a guy with a portable sawmill on Craigslist then talk with him about what you want. If you offer him $5.00 a board foot, that's a lot more then he typically gets so there's some motivation.

Also get it green or not so dry so that you can air dry it after slicing.

Kevin Looker

_________________
I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

I didn't say your question was dumb. My point was that you weren't recognizing the answers people were offering.

I agree with Lonnie. This is a very interesting and informative thread. Thanks to all for that and especially you, RusRob, for starting the discussion.

_________________
George :-)

I tried selling some nice resaw-ready billets once upon a time. As you know, it takes time and effort to find instrument grade wood, and I found that folks simply weren't willing to pay a premium unless the wood was already sliced up into dried and ready to use sets. It just wasn't worth it so sets are pretty much all I sell now. I thought there could be a nice niche for someone to source and sell billets, but from my perspective it turned out to be one of those things that people say they want but in the end won't actually pull out their wallets for.