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I'm not sure but it seems there's a certain Japanese luthier who makes gunpowder scorched guitar... says it improves tone or whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jfi0sOawT0

this is all I could think of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxjzLlVqSaQ&feature=kp

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

It's all fun until someone is picking a piece of shrapnel out of their eye. Stupid is as Stupid does.

If you notice in the video of the Japanese luthier where he lights the gunpowder, the smoke alarm went off.

I'd never do that inside, but he probably did that because it might be illegal in Japan to light gunpowder randomly...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I've met and talked with Michi a number of times at the past Montreal Guitar shows. He lives and works in California, not Japan.

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Still, I wouldn't light gunpowder inside. But if we're talking about California I can also understand that too...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Michi and Bryan Galloup are both world-class Luthiers and some of the best in the business. Bryan's Lutherie school is in my view the best in the world and his guitars are right up there too!

The North Woods Seminar is an invitation only event that was held last year and will be held again this year here in Michigan. The attendee list represents a very large number of some of the most well-known and accomplished Luthiers in the world.

Michi is using a Japanese traditional method which is obviously a cultural spin on what we might call antiquing a finish. Very interesting, very cool, and VERY worthy of respect - Tai Fu please show some....

Also I listened to the video twice and never once heard the word "tone" as your post says "it improves tone or whatever...." Wrong again Tai Fu there was no mention of tone in the video.....

Posting links, two of them, in the same post where one depicts some of the best Luthiers on the planet sharing methods and the other link depicts a bunch of jerks being a-holes and as Clay said even risking the health of others is disrespectful in my view and represents poor judgement, a disrespect of the trade, disrespecting two very fine Luthiers, and disrespectful of Japanese culture and tradition.... Looks like you're on a roll Tai Fu in that you just disrespected millions of folks in one post....

My hunch is that this is NOT the kind of thing that many OLFers come here to be a part of.... certainly not me.

I also find it rather ironic that someone who is asking, currently.... about using epoxy to cover up imperfections in their instruments would be critical of one who produces absolutely stunning instruments exhibiting superb craftsmanship, an eye for design as well as tradition, and most of all a willingness to share with us all selflessly.

And then as I read on you just disrespected California and it's residents as well which in my view is also disrespectful of the US. Tai Fu please refrain from being disrespectful of my country and it's people as well..... Sheesh.... unbelievable....

This thread as presented is embarrassing as well and someone needs to say so.... So I just did.

Moving on - Michi's guitar is very cool and I like the look of the scorched top a great deal. It's also interesting to me that since he was one of the first apprentices for Ervin Somogyi that what we see here does not at all look Somogyi inspired. It was always my belief that Somogyi tends to convey principals of acoustics and his spin on voicing but does not attempt to impart stylistic parameters on his students and apprentices.

Michi's work clearly shows this in that again there is nothing Somogyi visible in Michi's work. Very interesting.

I remember seeing that video before and don't remember any mention of tone either but having said that I don't think Tia is trying to be disrespectful. I personally would not do anything like that inside either and I highly doubt it would matter in California or elsewhere if it was done outside.

And hell ya on the blowing up the guitar video LOL I'm an admitted pyro maniac though so I love that stuff.

It's just a joke.

Hesh if you have something against me please take it up in PM. You seem very critical of just about everything I say.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

seems ok to me. mitchi says that it's a traditional treatment applied by the ancient ones to various instruments. imo, it's his art so he can do what he wants. i suspect it probably does harden up the top a bit allowing one to go thinner with the plate before scorching it.

i'm not afraid of burning little ole' gunpowder -i've done far worse, it's just not something for me though. i wonder if the smell ever goes away?

what do you think his powder of choice is? winchester, IMR, hodgdon, accurate?

It's not really the burning of gunpowder that's bad, it's what else could be ignited, thinners, paints, that cup of acetone/alcohol/etc. next to the workbench you just used for whatever could be ignited or even the can of gunpowder that might be nearby. Gunpowder spark can travel quite a ways, and I've had a fire in my shop because of that. I just recommend doing it outside aside from the smell, but also it's just safer. Even better to do it right after it just rained so nothing gets ignited. Also the way he did it, covering it up isn't recommended either, as it will just end up confining the powder, potentially leading to an explosion or at the very least, giving those sparks a little more push.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

so your issue is one of safety not of tone?

JF I get-it regarding destroying a guitar and have personally shot more guitars than likely anyone else that I know of. Remember too that I'm the one who posted this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V_hCqO6UQs at least several times in years past on the OLF.

My objection is the very poor form of being critical and disrespectful of others, accomplished others and then adding in a healthy dose of disrespect for Japanese culture/tradition and California and it's people, my people as well.... Bryan and Michi are also friends of mine.

I don't want to see it or read here on the OLF and this will not change, ever.

It's true that I don't have to look at certain people's posts and it's a choice to make it my business or not. My choice is to not let it go without at least expressing a view that I am sure is shared by at least some and that is that this is inappropriate, disrespectful, represents poor judgement, not to mention the distinct possibility of sour grapes here as well.

Might be a joke to you but when it's at the expense of the traditions and people of another nation and/or my own I see nothing funny about it....

People come and go in the Lutherie circles but some invest a lifetime of study and very, very hard work seemingly often for very little personal gain as well. When folks who actually walk the walk, not just talk the talk, are willing to share this thread is the kind of thing that may make one rethink why they may be inclined to share at all. And that to me is as counter as you can get to the very concept of an Internet Lutherie forum....

Regardless of if you think that Tai Fu is intentionally trying to be disrespectful or not the fact remains that his comments are in fact disrespectful and he needs to do better. You don't see the UK folks being critical of US traditions or vice versa and there is a reason for this - it's very poor form....

And Tai Fu if I do seem to be critical of you very perceptive on your part.... If you are not complaining about how much things cost or looking for a way to cover up flaws you are seemingly insulting entire nations and their people and traditions.

I'm happy to stop commenting on your posts except for when they represent a position that disrespects others - that I will not let go. It would be very easy for me to tear you a new one.... and be critical of your country and culture as well but you don't see me or anyone else here doing so. Why? Because it's an absolutely classless thing to do....

the technique that michi was going for is a common technique used in the production of the Ghuzeng (sp.?) in china and the koto (i think?) in japan where the tone wood is scorched to dry and change the properties of the piece.
i am sure michi took the proper safety precautions when he did this method.
I had the pleasure of playing the finished instrument and it was truly an amazing piece of work.
Not sure how much had to do with the gunpowder process or just michi's excellence but it was special.
btw, i believe he did the "fire proofing" outside his shop

I'm sorry for the disrespect and I certainly do not mean to disrespect or say anything about California or USA. I grew up in Texas anyways.

I'm not sure why Hesh is so critical of my posts, either taking a gamble on work or taking on commissions.

I am not lucky enough to have the opportunity to apprentice with Luthiery Gods, because I don't have a ton of money and I'm not at a location where there's an abundance of luthiery gods around to ask for advise on. I had to learn everything about guitarmaking by watching videos or asking questions and doing it. So I'm not the god of luthiery yet, and maybe after many years I might be one, but I never got into this for the fame or anything, I just love working with my hands.

All I did was ask for advise on things such as epoxy filling the tops, and I have no idea how it got turned into an attack on one's ability to build a guitar. Just because I ask a question about something doesn't mean I am going to do it. I ask because I want to know if I'm going to make a big mistake by doing that. Is there anything wrong with that? Surely an apprentice asks question to his master?

Hesh if you really have something to say to me instead of picking apart my post and saying in 200 words why I'm such a poor luthier, please pm me and tell me why you seem to dislike me.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hey Tai Fu,

I recently posted a thread about my burnt maple sides and replicated the effect (to some degree) without gunpowder. I have been studying how they do this from some text of Japanese Koto makers. While it is mainly an effect to discolor the wood and to burn the oils out of the wood. Some at least according to my research have claimed it to be beneficial tonally. I have not uncovered any data on it just some old Japanese Koto makers saying this or that. Primarily it is an effect though to make the wood a deep rich color. I can personally see it might change the wood in some way but to what extent i do not know.

The traditional way to do this is to get an flat headed iron pole and heat it to red white hot in a coal chamber. Knocking the iron tip over stone to release the carbon from coals and then drag the flat head over the wood several times till there occurs no more flame. After it has cooled it should be cleaned to desired effect. Some plane it back or sand. To do this against a piece of wood under 3-4mm would be murder and would go straight through. I understand the reason why he used gun powder, the temperature, the short burst of time, and the type of smoke it produces. I could not begin to mess with gunpowder, i do not think i would be living much longer if i did.

Michi Matsuda is well known as he studied under another well known luthier Somogyi and for his own experimental designs. I enjoy the mixes and new ideas.

_________________
久保
美智え

Anyone raised inTexas is fine with me.

I just guess you didn't like the page and a half ass-chewing. I didn't either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tai Fu,
I thought your post was fine. It didn't seem overtly attacking or accusatory -- just a bit "bewildered" at why some guy is using gunpowder to scorch their top. If it was some unknown luthier rather than Matsuda, then I would have probably had the same impression you did. Regardless, I have a top with runout that I would like to try this on.

I'm not trying to start an argument here -- just wanted Tai to know that Hesh's impression of his postings is not shared by everyone. Hesh, I hope my disagreement doesn't upset you -- there's room for lots of different opinions here on the OLF and I'm not saying that your perspective isn't valid -- although, I think a PM to Tai might have been more useful in this context.

Anyway, if I do try the gunpowder finish -- I'll make sure to let everyone know how it goes assuming I don't blow myself up.

Tai Fu it's not personal believe it or not nor is it a question as to if I like you or not and since you asked what it may be I'm going to respond to you on the forum, in the light of day, because that's how I roll...

Before I do though my apologies to everyone for the off-topic nature of my comments - this includes you too Tai Fu.

When a forum member asks on the forum about using epoxy to fill gaps in bindings and around the rosette as you noticed you received lots of answers and opinions from forum members. My take was different and instead of contributing to helping you to hide flaws what I posted was let's examine what methods you use for bindings and rosettes and see if we can help you to not have any gaps at all to hide....

This suggestion was made out of confidence in you and an assumption on my part that since you do show great interest in the trade, make your living in your country as a Luthier would I not be selling you short if I automatically assumed that you are not capable of having flawless results?

In my way of thinking it would have been an insult to you to assume on my part that you should be held to a different and lower standard than everyone else.

This idea of answering a question with a request to dig deeper into the exact issue(s) that you are attempting to find a solution for is nothing new on the OLF by the way. How many times when someone asks about gaps in bindings has the answer from many here been over the years to route it off and do it again? You could say that we have a tradition on the forum of doing things correctly even if it means doing them again.

I was and remain unwilling to sell you and your abilities short and have you subscribing to a different and lower standard.

And that Tai Fu is no insult, far from it, and what it is is an expression that I believe that you are capable of not having some of the issues that you describe in the first place.

Regarding this thread my read of both the words that you used including "whatever...." and the seemingly "dismissive" tone of your post that you are not one to be keen to when in doubt at least offer professional courtesy to others in the trade. Professional courtesy in my world is important and something that is done every single day when one Luthier has to comment on the work of other Luthiers. In addition we often can't know the exact parameters that a client may have dictated that resulted in something that we may see that seems untoward or less than stellar work.

So we give each other the benefit of the doubt again known as professional courtesy.

Your thread lacks professional courtesy and also comments on something that was described in the video as traditional to people of another land and culture. As such my alarms went off and I shook my head and wondered why I would even have my name in a thread such as this.

Further, Texas born or not it IS bad form to comment negatively about someone else's homeland and culture. This you should know.

So please stop attempting to be the victim here, your post and subsequent comments are disrespectful of others and although you may have not had this intent the "tone" of your comments does imply this.

Lastly it very well may be that you simply do not understand how others may be perceiving what you write. Your repeated mention of Lutherie Gods prior to your feeling sorry for yourself for not having an opportunity to apprentice with a pro also smacks of disrespect and even belittlement of those who came before us, earned their way, and as such are the names that we all know these days.

You may not know that you are being perceived this way as I mentioned but you are, Tai Fu, and it does not make you an attractive candidate for one to want to offer you a hand or even an apprenticeship. You seem to be complaining often which hey if that floats your boat so be it but please do not complain about those who have earned their way in this trade. It is disrespectful plain and simple.

So it's not personal but I am being critical of you. It's been said before to take criticism seriously at times but never personally..... That's my hope for what you do with what I am conveying to you here. It's a lot easier to help someone with what ever they may request if one is not angry over nationalistic insults and cultural bias let alone disrespect for folks that I know and greatly admire.

You have a choice now to consider my words and perhaps avoid negative comments about the countries of others and to also learn some professional courtesy or blow it all off as the irritable bowel syndrome of some whack-job in the US. My hope is that you consider my words as offered - to be helpful to You.

jeez, you guys are making olf suck. nobody asked for a lecture or a fillibuster either. get a grip.

I never tried such things myself, but lately I'm seeing burned or "toasted" wood being touted as having "superior" tone. Maybe I am a traditionalist but I am just hesitant to declare that burning the wood would make the guitar sound better, especially when the price of the said wood jumps 300% just because someone baked it in an oven or blew it up with gunpowder.

If anyone wants to try the gunpowder thing just take appropriate precaution. I did a little hobby pyro a few years back and tested lighting a small pile of gunpowder in my shop. That started a fire which summoned the fire department, as well as a bunch of questions as to why the fire started. After that I refused to have anything to do with gunpowder in my shop.

Also I am sorry for my lack of ability to perceive things, I have Aspergers and so it's much harder for me to "read" people.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hi Tai Fu,

The burning of wood for Koto boards is a traditional way in some parts of Japan to create the coloration effect. It is not for tonal qualities although some may claim it and it may have some truth to it but there is no data for it. Maybe density changes or vibrations move differently through it nobody knows. Again it is not for a better sound. The price of the effect is as always in the eye of the beholder, and so no matter what anyone thinks it will not change the beholders views. I do not like abstract art yet many people pay 5 times the amount of my house for one mall picture of abstract art. It does not make sense to me but maybe it shouldn't. If you would like to experiment with that type of effect i can recommend the way i described it in my other thread and if you would like some more info on it please ask. Was there some kind of question you had about the scorched guitar or just wanted commentary?

all the best

_________________
久保
美智え

To be honest with you I just thought it was weird to pour blackpowder on a top and light it (I would not try smokeless powder by the way, they burn VERY SLOWLY unconfined and will turn your top into a crisp). Visually I would hate to grain fill it and the guy talked about filling it with french polish/pumice methods, I guess it does create that unique look. I just prefer the look of natural wood rather than burned wood (which kinda looks like badly stained spruce) with additions of things like sunburst to spice things up. I don't think I'll want to roast burn any guitar wood unless I'm intending to use them as firewood.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

The technique he used to accomplished the effect is indeed in my opinion a bit too dangerous for my tastes. I prefer a slower and more controllable method. For me i like the look of it, but it is again a personal preference. I like both natural wood and the weathered effect as well. What i do not like for my personal taste is the painted over wood on electrics or acoustics as i like to see some figure or grain. Yet that does not mean it is the way for everyone, many like that style, i just happen not to.

_________________
久保
美智え

Hesh?!?!?!?!??!?! How embarrassing that you would misinterpret Tai's post in such a way. It comes off that you've been harbouring resentment towards Tai for some time now and this was your chance to air it out.

I hear it has an "explosive" sound har har har. He's a luthier of the highest "caliber" yuk yuk yuk

I think its a very cool look. Almost like a sunburst or maybe using old weathered wood. Plus his head stock is gorgeous