Official Luthiers Forum!

Joke all you want Lonnie, soon, S. macrophylla will be Appendix 1, and we'll all be screwed since no one even gets receipts for the stuff.

In the case of S. mac, it ALL looks the same, a picture would be useless to prove when you bought it.

It was only an example to illustrate the need for having the license before you get caught.
Actually there are some fish species that you are only allowed to catch one per year by accident. Catch two and you are in violation whether you take it into possession or not (California waters).



they can prove it and date it.





I[/quote]

_________________
Lance Peck

Lance, care to elaborate?

In 2007 the ASIA symposium warned us about this . If you didn't heed that warning and start to deal with legit suppliers , you had to know it was going to happen. Documentation , can be an affidavit notarized etc. I agree there are many open ended questions to be answered. KNOW YOUR SUPPLIERS. Actually you are supposed to have a PPQ 505 with any flura fauna sale. How many of you have them?
EBAY is the last place I would buy wood. CYA.

I have some specific questions in to FWS and I hope my contact there can help answer some of this. I don't think the sky is falling and for the most part ,if you bought from a legit source you should be ok. GET YOUR DOCUMENTS FROM NOW ON

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

If they take civil or administrative actions by confiscating the wood from you or imposing fines, but if they want to seek a criminal conviction the burden of proof is on them, not you. It's called "innocent until proven guilty". Certainly no jury would convict anyone if the defendant must prove their innocence.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Sorry I had to run out.... since you ask I will elaborate (a little)

They can ID BRW to species in a court of law. It is difficult for us to identify sometimes but a timber biologist can swear as an expert witness for the government and the court will accept the Id.. That is the simple way. And if they want they can take destructive samples to test.

For BRW I only know some basics....The fact is they have been developing DNA protocols and can ID it to species. They have been building a database of DNA samples from as many samples as possible worldwide and can match DNA to groups of the samples. You may have a piece of BRW and claim it was imported 40 years ago but they may have the database match that shows it was from a tree cut 10 years ago.

For Mahogany I know some first hand facts. The French Government financed a program for the development of DNA testing on Mahogany. They have been making DNA standards from different mahogany producing countries and regions within those countries. The program is designed to be able to verify the legality, actually the illegality of any given piece of mahogany. When the data collection is complete they will be able to sample a piece of mahogany and determine where it came from. They actually will be able to locate the river drainage it came from. They can age date it based on harvest records from the different areas.

This whole idea started with Date trees in North Africa and the Mid East. It seems like Date trees are quite important and many select varieties have been moved around to different areas. Someone wanted to sort out and positively ID these different varieties so they (French) developed this DNA system for plant ID. They can now test a date fruit and tell where it was grown!

OK you probably wonder how the H I know this crap? About 3 years ago we were staying at a small hotel in Northern Peru and at breakfast a young fellow joined our table (small hotel 5 rooms). He was quite talkitive! I asked him what he was in remote Peru for and he told me...He is a biogenetist developing the Mahogany DNA protocol to help stop illegal Mahogany cutting. He had no idea that I am in the wood business and I did not bother to tell him! He liked to talk about his achievements. He said he would be ready in about 3 years to use the system in a court of law. He feels it will stand up because the Date tree system has already been used and accepted in an international court.
Why is this important enough for this effort? For years (15) illegal Mahogany has been smuggled out of Peru and warehoused in Mexico. This wood is distributed to various Central American countries and exported as if it were harvested in those countries.
He let slip that samples from imports and exports of CITES wood have been being taken for years to build the database.

I asked him if they were looking at BRW and he said his associates were doing that.
Somewhere in the world there is a database of BRW samples and dates the wood was imported. If you present BRW and declare it is from old stock and they have DNA that matches it that is not old...... what do you suppose they will say?

_________________
Lance Peck

If that were only true! In a criminal trial you have a huge burden to prove you are innocent.
The charge will be for selling CITES species without a permit..... you don't have a permit..... the Prosecution has no burden.
It makes no difference if the wood is legal if you don't have the required permit, the jury will have no option.

_________________
Lance Peck

Well I've bought wood off eBay. From a member of this forum. Didn't get a certificate and never ask for one. Mikey I don't want to seem to be making light of this subject because it's near and dear to all of us. If the gubbament says no BRW then were not going to get any.
The problem is this exotic wood comes from areas of the world where the people are dirt poor. They actually do the work but get a Tortilla and a handful of rice for their efforts. The importer or exporter will be the one getting the money. Nobody wants to see the trees go extinct. Some on here says that's not happening some do. They clear cut the same trees we are trying so hard to save. So the can farm. Why don't they just farm the trees? Too simple? Again the importer and exporter raise their heads. Apparently it's a touchy subject. But I ain't paying $2500 for a set of backs and sides. Just ain't happening. I personally don't know of anyone who would. But that's another story. Again no offense meant by my cavalier attitude about a specie of wood I'll never handle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lance, thanks for that. Very interesting, and not that hard to believe (in this day and age) that DNA databases exist. That would still not have much bearing on wood that was acuired decades ago, before even DNA sequencing was a thing. I'd bet that basically no one who has BRW that was bought before say, 1980 has any kind of documentation on that wood, short of a hand written receipt. There would be no DNA sample, no picture, no description. That's the sort of thing I'm wondering about. We all know of some luthier who has 50 sets of primo BRW from "back in the 70s" that he's sitting on for his late career or retirement. at 1K a set (at least) you're looking at some serious wad, that could me made worthless. That's a shame.

Lonniem I know you're no tmaking light of this. We all wish that these resources could me managed better.
I feel that in the hoopla of BRW going (or being) Appendix 1, that we forget that ALOT of wood we use will end up there sooner rather than later.
Ebony, Honduran RW, Cocobolo, Mahogany, Madagascar RW...you get the idea. Those will be listed pretty dang quick, IMHO.

Where I'm going with this is here: We buy wood today, from reputable dealers, mostly. When we recieve the wood, we get a receipt, indicating that we bought wood. It will probably have the common name of the species. It will not have the species name, the dimensions, a picture, or anything of that sort. Basically it will say that you bought some Gabon Ebony on 12.31.12 for $150 bucks from, say Gilmer. And in the case of Gilmer, that wood will have a stock number written on it, which will also be on the receipt.

How will that stand as proof (when Gabon goes Appendix 1) in court that that wood was harvested prior to the listing date?

This same scenario applies to most of the wood we use.

If we're saying that this only deals with import/export, and we can freely (if not legally) sell it between ourselves in the USA, then I'm OK with that. That is how it is now, I guess.

Great discussion, guys, Cheers!

I'm not sure what the costs are for DNA or carbon tests, but someone having a few sets of BRW or whatever has to carry a lot lower priority than a murder case, so beyond basic and easy forensics I am not sure how far they'd be willing to go to prove the wood is BRW or harvested before the date.

Sure in a court of law they just need to prove the lack of a license, but they would also need to prove that the wood in question is in fact the exact species that are regulated, and it was bought after the cutoff date. For a criminal case to stand the proof must be "beyond a reasonable doubt" and the government has the burden of proof. The defendant only need to provide enough evidence to create that reasonable doubt. Of course it depends on the lawyer you have but generally a better lawyer would be better at creating that reasonable doubt.

It is far more likely that USFWS will seek an administrative/civil penalty rather than a criminal one. It costs a heck of a lot less and the wood in question is obviously confiscated (which is not considered a punishment) and fine levied without having to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt. However unless you are someone worth going after (for example a dealer/distributor accepting poached woods, illegal trafficking in CITES materials, etc.), it makes little sense to pursue a criminal case.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

USFW are only the policemen. Prosecution is done and financed by the US Government and they have no concern about costs to prove a case. Remember it is not a little civil fine for CITES violations the fines can be hundreds of thousands of dollars. The Federal Courts like to set examples by getting convictions. Convicting a little person who can't afford high profile attorneys are easy targets. Convict a couple small wood users and scare the Hell out of the community and trade in BRW will all but stop. The government has on staff experts that will testify to the species Id and they can easily convince a jury. All they have to do is prove you did not get the proper permits.
I wish it were as fair as you assume it is.
Remember no one that owns a guitar will be on the jury!
USFW is giving fair advance warning to the community to get their house in order.

_________________
Lance Peck

The DNA database and samples is not there to help you prove your wood is legal it is to prove you are guilty.
It is a shame as you say but that is what the ultimate goal is, to devalue the wood species.
A person that has a stash that is worth $50k and using it as an investment for retirement has effectively used it as a commercial monetary instrument. If you are keeping it with the idea to sell it in the future you have stepped beyond a hobby and turned it into a commercial business. A permit is required to commercialize CITES species. No matter when or how the wood was harvested some form of license must be on file as of June 26th if you intend to use the wood for other than personal use. BTW gifting the wood is not considered personal use. By using the wood as a gift you were relieved the expense burden of having to pay for a gift and the FEDS consider that an income gain to you just as if you sold the wood for money. No way to beat them without changing the law before you break it, but the other side already got the law changed to make it worse for our side, that is the shame.

_________________
Lance Peck

Your right Mikey. It's probably a matter of time. However,these countries where this wood grows are very poor. You'd think if they had a natural resource they would try to capitalize on it. Whoever is pushing these bills are sure to let up eventually. $""t talks money walks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I also have bought off ebay .It came from Madiera with cites papers dated 2008. Is this legal?

_________________
James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Are the CITES papers for entry into the USA?
Are the CITES papers in the name of the person who sold it to you with the same name on your purchase invoice?

_________________
Lance Peck

I'm just going to use the rest of my BRW for gunstocks and keep them loaded.

_________________
_____________________________

Kurt Thomas

"There's a first time for everything even if you do it by mistake."

Yes US entry.Bought it from another luthier who lives in Washington where Madiera is located.He may be affiliated with them but I`m not sure.I`ve bought several things from him.He seems on the level.

_________________
James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I should mention I have built and sold with woods that I have bought from him and have more scheduled.I figure, I`m good with Madiera listed as the importer.How can we ever be absolutely sure.

_________________
James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Earlier in this thread I stated:
Indonesia is a country where illegal logging has been a huge problem for years. While Appendix-1 listed species are not threatened ... yet ..., the poaching devastates Indonesian forests and makes their management unsustainable. It has a huge impact on the ability of Australia and New Zealand to market their timber -- the economic losses to these countries are staggering. So it was interesting to read this today in a weekly email newsletter focused on the Australasian forest industry:

"Project to track Indonesian timber using DNA
The University’s Australian Centre for Evolutionary Biology and Biodiversity has won a US$518,833 grant from the International Tropical Timber Organisation for a 2-year project in Indonesia. The project will develop DNA markers for important Indonesian timber species, allowing trees to be tracked from forest through to final product. Using DNA-fingerprints, a tree-by-tree approach will control the ‘chain of custody’ in cooperation with the forestry agency and timber companies in Indonesia. (Friday Offcuts 2014-06-20)"

This project will not build a database of individual trees, but will produce the marker set required to (1) distinguish species and, (2) more importantly, allow DNA fingerprints of individual trees/pieces/logs to be generated. Just like forensic labs use a set of DNA markers to identify human tissue from other species, they can also store information to confirm identity of individuals whose marker profile is entered into a database system such as CODIS. The first step is the development of the markers. Markers for 13 loci are used for the CODIS human forensic database -- this Australian project will develop a similar set for Indonesian tree species.

While I'm not aware of a similar project underway for Dalbergia nigra, if it hasn't already started, it will most certainly come about in the very near future and will drastically change how CITES enforcement is carried out (and the way wood owners can document the ID of their pieces).

I watched a video on wood poaching. The wood is taken to the docks where it receives proper paperwork. I'm sure a few centavos change hands to acquire that paperwork.
The countries are poor and the people make a buck anyway they can . Just as everyone of us would do. When your belly is full your income stable then and only then does the human critter feel compelled to take the high road.
It would be nice if all users could get together and farm the forests. One because our planet can use the extra oxygen. Two maybe the poor countries wouldn't be quite so poor. Bob Taylor did a nice video concerning Ebony. How only the heart of the tree was used and all the rest of the tree was left to rot. We all thought that maybe he was laying a trail to bring multi-colored Ebony to the market. Personally I like the black wood but if it had streaks in it I would like that also. Just my 2 cents


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk