Wow it’s amazing how these posts on this site parallel the posts on the Delcamp site for classical builder folks…
I’ll introduce myself I’m Brian McCombs.
The reason I’m butting in is because I’ve just been through quite a process of trying to get my pre-convention wood certified using permit application form 3-200-32 It has spawned 100 replies so far…. I’m going to just copy my experience here here, it’ll be long and a lot of stuff to read but if you have ANY Braziilan rosewood at all….even if it is just ONE set you should read below and consider what you might do to keep yourself on the right side of the law. Again sorry for all the content but I don’t want to have to retype this as it took about 3 weeks of going back and forth to get through this process. If I'm breaking any rules with any of this content below I apologize but it's my first post on this site....and IT'S a WHOPPER. THE KEY PARAGRAPH IS THE BLUE ONE and the ones that follow, all the content before the blue paragraph is the work I did to get to the anwers in the Blue paragraph. The last two paragraphs summarize things and I'm happy that I can share this you folks.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Wednesday 28 May 2014, 13:02 pm I bought 30+ board feet of BRW a few weeks ago...person to person transaction. The wood was originally acquired in the mid to late 60's by the sellers father. Wondering what I should do....get a written receipt and provenance yes...which is no problem but beyond that I dunno....it isn't like I can produce a receipt from the 60's from the initial sale right.
What then....are there forms to fill out etc...etc...do you have to register it or ????? I know this has been kicked around a lot but I haven't been tuned in at all....now that I've got a stack of boards I'm suddenly interested, any info or tribal knowledge that can be passed along would be appreciated.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Wednesday 28 May 2014, 22:41 pm I'm pretty sure I would've still purchased it. The way I read it, it isn't a ban as much as a law making it a felony to buy or sell it without proper documentation. The proper documentation is the gray part...and I apologize again if this has been kicked around, but it appears that their definition is: Written records or other documentary evidence. So I can only assume that if I have a written signed receipt and a written/signed provenance stating by the seller that it was in his fathers possession since the 1960's then I can sell it in whatever form provided that it isn't exported. I find that to be inconvenient but not a show stopper. It would be nice to find a concrete answer with regards to what docs will suffice but I bet that will never be defined...only through enforcement will a precedence be established I suspect.
This means due diligence will be necessary when selling the guitar...that you somehow keep an accurate record for trace-ability ? I guess I'll do that and hope for the best.
Does anyone know if there is any type of Society or working group of instrument makers/rosewood users that might be interacting with the FWS in any way? Typically, if there is such a group, and if they ask questions in a formal manner, the government body MUST respond...it becomes a matter of record. Must be something..i can't believe the big hitters haven't formed some type of alliance. If they haven't I bet one is in the works.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Thursday 29 May 2014, 16:27 pm http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-32.pdfHas anyone introduced this yet? Please look at it and tell me if this is a start, is it a way forward?
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Thursday 29 May 2014, 18:57 pm Export only. I read it that way too at first. This gets confusing....bear with me.
From the Federal Register:
removed fed register as it was real long.The key sentence is: We are not adding new prohibitions here. The restrictions on use after import of certain CITES specimens have
been in place since 2007.
They aren't adding anything that didn't already exist prior to 2007. This table isn't a NEW law. I take this to mean that if you have been using BRW for commercial purposes since 2007 that doesn't MEET the requirements of the table referenced by 23.55, if you don't have a pre-convention certificate or or cannot clearly demonstrate you have pre-Cites wood then it has been unlawful to use it for commercial purposes since 2007.
In looking at the table referenced by 23.55 (the table in the first post that this paragraph from the Federal Register is referencing) it says: If the specimen was lawfully imported, with no restrictions on its use after import, before the species was listed as described in paragraphs (a), (b), and (c) of this section, you may continue to use the specimen as indicated for paragraphs (d), (e) and (f) of this section provided you can clearly demonstrate (using written records or other documentary evidence) that your specimen was imported prior to the CITES listing, with no restrictions on its use after import.
Paragraph (d) item (2) says: Pre-convention certificate.
Now if you go back to the permit application
http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-32.pdf and look at Part I. on page three there is a box to check if you are requesting the activity of Pre-Convention.
Further down it references Brazilian Rosewood and then an area (b) for guitar components and wood. Here it does not say EXPORT but Re-export rather.
b. Guitar (musical instrument) manufacturer/exporter/lumber exporter. Provide a catalog or inventory of your pre-Convention stock of Dalbergia nigra wood and/or guitars.
I certify that all the guitars/guitar pieces/lumber to be re-exported, and identified in my catalog or inventory, are made from my pre-Convention supply of Dalbergia nigra, harvested prior to June 11, 1992. I further certify that I will not attempt to export more wood or applying for multiple shipments, I request to export up to _______ guitars/pieces of wood in the next 3 years.
Applicant's signature: _______________________________________ Date: ___________
I know it is easy to get hung up on the words export and Re-export and say...I'm not exporting it I'm just selling it in the USA....but the law seems to make no real distinction.
Item 10 say:
b. If you were not the original importer, provide a copy of the invoice or other document that shows how you acquired the plant specimen from the original importer. (Be sure to correlate each document to the corresponding plant.)
I take all of this to mean that if you wish to be legal with laws that have been in place for the last 6 years you have to get a pre-convention certificate and/or declare your inventory and what you intend to sell.
If this application ISN'T a means to do just that then what is it?
.......hoping others will look at this and provide feedback.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Thursday 29 May 2014, 20:21 pm Yeah...the whole export and re-export thing has me second guessing my initial feelings. I called the F&WS and also sent them an email...probably won't get anywhere BUT, I'm keeping record of my due diligence...I AM TRYING to stay within the confines of the law....whatever they are. If I get anywhere I'll let folks know how I got there.
There is also a section a) for vintage guitars. b) seems to be for parts/wood and lumber etc...
11. For Dalbergia nigra (commonly known as Brazilian rosewood or Bahia rosewood), complete one of the following certification statements:
a. Vintage guitar (musical instrument) exporter. If you are requesting a single-use permit to export a vintage guitar(s), provide an inventory of your pre-Convention stock of guitars made using Dalbergia nigra.
If you are requesting to establish a master file for the export of vintage guitars, you will not need to provide an inventory of all guitars that you intend to export. The master file is typically established for up to 3 years, so it would not be possible to identify guitars that are not currently in your possession. Therefore, if we establish a master file, the master file will not establish a limit on the number that can be exported during the life of the master file. However, you will be restricted to exporting only guitars that were manufactured from pre-Convention Dalbergia nigra, harvested prior to June 11, 1992. If this is acceptable, please sign and date the following certification statement:
I certify that all the guitars to be exported under my master file will have been manufactured from pre-Convention Dalbergia nigra wood, harvested prior to June 11, 1992, and will be documented by the guitars' serial numbers or other identification. If requested by the Service, I am willing to report on the number of guitars and their identification numbers that may be exported under my master file when requesting additional partially completed CITES documents under my master file.
Applicant's signature: _______________________________________ Date: ___________
b. Guitar (musical instrument) manufacturer/exporter/lumber exporter. Provide a catalog or inventory of your pre-Convention stock of Dalbergia nigra wood and/or guitars.
I certify that all the guitars/guitar pieces/lumber to be re-exported, and identified in my catalog or inventory, are made from my pre-Convention supply of Dalbergia nigra, harvested prior to June 11, 1992. I further certify that I will not attempt to export more wood or applying for multiple shipments, I request to export up to _______ guitars/pieces of wood in the next 3 years.
Applicant's signature: _______________________________________ Date: ___________
3-200-32 Rev. 02/2014 P
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I want to use my BRW and make some nice guitars out of it...and I'm confident I will. I'll try to update this with my progress. It would be nice if somebody out there who has performed this process could read this and weigh in. From what I read in the federal register concerning certifying a species as pre-convention there does SEEM to be some suggestion that there is wiggle room with respect to the burden of proof. Meaning if you can reasonably show due diligence in your application they CAN provide you with documentation that will allow you build with it. I'm sure that they know there isn't a soul out there that has a receipt for some wood they bought in 1968. They also state that they see no value nor positive impact by making pre-convention stuff unusable. They say it is a FRAMEWORK to help. FWIW.
It is the stuff that has gone from hand to hand to hand that will be difficult. And maybe they just shoot everybody down but I don't see any response from anybody who can say either way. It will be a hard process full of dead ends perhaps but I won't know if I don't try I suppose. It ought to be interesting. The part I don't understand is...they say this clarification doesn't change what has been law since 2007....is anyone else catching that? It suggests that quite a number of folks have been felons for some time yes? Isn't a sale a commercial act? I'm sure it is, does that make me and the guy who sold it to me a felon? Dang I was doing so good too. I swear that means all those sets on bay that don't have any documentation, permit, certificate or provenance whatever is unlawful. Am I misreading all this? Since 2007? This suggests that they are NOT enforcing anything in the small potato world.
For my records. I found in the 50 CFR 23 document...who to call with my questions their phone number and email address I called left a message with my return cell number and MY email address. I also emailed them, I told them I wish to ensure that I'm compliant and I need help finding the way. I did this today May 29th 2014. I will do it again tomorrow. And everyday thereafter. I think I understand which application to use...but I'm not sure how to use it exactly and I'd rather get some clarification before I start sending them checks and waiting 90 days to hear I've no idea of what I'm doing.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Friday 30 May 2014, 19:14 pm
May 29th 2014. For my records. I found in the 50 CFR 23 document...who to call with my questions their phone number and email address I called left a message with my return cell number and MY email address. I also emailed them, I told them I wish to ensure that I'm compliant and I need help finding the way.
Today, May 30th I emailed
'permitsR3ES@fws.gov' from the webpage one of the webpages that I landed on. I can't recall the page exactly or how I got there. I inquired as to what permit I need, etc...
I also called the East Lansing Michigan Field Office of the Fish and wildlife Servide for MY region...I talked to a human, named Sandy she was very nice to me. While she couldn't help me she gave me a phone number 612-713-5489 Mr. Harrison she said he could help - I left a voice message.
Hey...Mr Harrison called me back...he is a swell guy. He said: I probably should have been referred to the (? ) I couldn't write it down fast enough...but then he Wikipedia'd Brazilian Rosewood while he was on the phone with me and said AH!...this is a CITES issue and he had just dealt with an issue like this concerning an owl and referred me to Anna Barry @fws.gov She I guess is from the Department of Management Authority. He said she is real helpful and if I don't get anywhere to call him back and he'll put me in contact with somebody at the DMA higher up and ultimately answer my questions or point me to the correct docs/process. One thing,…CITES is pronounced “Site eez” I’ve always said it like “Sights” so now were learning stuff so that’s good. I penned Anna an email stating I don't know what to do and I wish to be legal and compliant with the law. I googled her: Anna Barry, Senior Permit Biologist, Branch of Permits, Division of Management Authority.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Monday 02 June 2014, 14:17 pm Yes....in my digging here I've read a lot of comments in the Federal Register and I'm wondering throughout all of this: Where was the music/woodworking industry? I can't believe that the big hitters within our industry have not created some type of Society or Guild to come together to communicate with a united voice to respond to the proposed rulemaking. There are a lot of comments from folks who want to breed monkeys and exotic birds (not together of course) But nothing I can find from Gibson or Martin or even a small output builder.....Maybe I need to look further back at the 2007 Register....it is a lot of content to go through and it isn't easy to dig up. I've nearly put myself into a coma a few times reading this stuff.
You don't HAVE to have a huge lobby or spend a lot of money to be heard. I know this as I regularly deal with CFR's, and the Fed Register as part of my job over the last 20 years....it just takes an organization of like-minded people and a united voice. I'm a member of a certain society, we regularly send them formal comments as a group....They HAVE to hear you and respond - it's the law and they DO. Not saying they'll help you out a single bit but, you don't have even the slightest chance if they don't know you are there. The comment period during proposed rulemaking is really important...you can HALT the forward progress of the passage of a law if you make enough comments and raise enough valid concerns. We missed the boat on this one by several years it appears. Somebody needs to start a community, a society, a guild or some type of working party to speak to these issues. I'm not sure where GAL has been in any of this?
The uproar over this new table 23.55 is many years overdue. It is simply stating that if you import an Appendix 1 species you can't use it for anything commercial (which is pretty much anything at all) without have a pre-convention certificate. So....what about all these sets of backs and sides and lumber you find at auction. I emailed a few of these folks asking what type of CITIES paperwork would accompany the wood if I bought it. I emailed 5 people...I got 2 responses. One said paperwork had been applied for. Another said I'd get a sales receipt for a piano (the wood removed from the key cover) from 1860. I'm assuming the receipt is not the original but from a later period. One also stated "it is fine to use in the states but you can't export it" This assumption seems to be prevalent across the board...It has always been my understanding that as long as it doesn't leave the US you can buy/sell do whatever you want and that is true as long as you have this certificate. I'm thinking: nobody actually has this certificate, sure looks that way. But what IS this certificate, how do you get it ? Does this certificate then need to accompany each guitar you make and sell in the US? I KNOW IT DOES FOR EXPORT but what about inter/intrastate commercial activities? They do a **** poor job explaining it all I can tell you that.
My big point of confusion at this juncture is: I only intend to use in inter/intrastate commercial activities....so must I have this government issued certificate or is it simply a matter of having documentation on hand that states it is PRE-ACT. I don't want to export it. I don't want to import any wood. I want to cut my PRE-Convention boards into guitar sets and build guitars out of them; I wish to offer these guitars for sale for the U.S. only.
Here is a summary so far for future reading.
The law comes from 50 CFR 23, Environmental Safety ACT ESA.
The Division of Management Authority is the arm of the Fish and Wildlife Service that approves and Issues permits for the Import/Export and Re-export (whatever that is) of items captured under the ESA.
There are two applications of interest for BRW, they are 3-200-32 and OMB No. 1018-0093 find them here at
http://www.fws.gov/forms/ The OMB form is elusive I tried to come up with it but if you are doing this for the purposes of BRW then it will reference you to the 3-200-32 form.
I think anybody who wishes to move forward with these permits will want to classify the wood as PRe-Convention. To call it Pre-Act would be nearly an impossibility ( if you look at OMB form) it says: has not entered into commerce (e.g., been bought, sold, or offered for sale by you or anyone else) since December 28, 1973, or the date when listed..... so if you bought it after 1973 then you can't meet this PRE-ACT requirement, and I don't understand what the real difference is between the two.
Now here is how YOU can help, Please read this application
http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-23.pdf and You should also read this part:
http://www.fws.gov/forms/part13.pdfand formulate any questions you might have, are you confused about anything? What areas? Put forth general questions and either email them to me or post them; I will summarize them and try to get answers as I go forward. THANKS.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Tuesday 03 June 2014, 20:25 pm
Today I rec'd an email from FWS.gov......I'll forgive the person for calling me BRAIN....as I get that at least once a day. Spell check won't turn it red so It's kind of a running joke around my household, my wife and kids pick on me and call me BRAIN. I'm used to it. His email:
Hello Brain,
I would suggest contacting our Division of Management Authority (http://www.fws.gov/international/about- ... ority.html or tel:1-800-358-2104). They should be able to answer your question and assist with any permitting needs.
Thank you and please let me know if I can provide any further assistance.
Regards,
Well I have already been to that hyperlink ok.......So, I called the number, and I think I've called it once maybe twice before.....I got the recording and I picked what I thought was the correct option, I got a nice lady that answered the phone....After telling her what I was trying to do OK....I bought some BRW I wish to build guitars for commercial purposes for the USA, I have reason to believe it is pre-convention as I have a signed statement from the seller that it IS pre-convention possibly PRE ACT lumber blah blah...same thing I've been saying for quite some time as I'm sure all of you are tired of hearing but.....my real issue is how do I fill out certain portions of this application 3-200-32 once I started throwing document numbers out there she said whoa....let me transfer you. Then I got a very nice but kind of difficult to understand woman who had a Latino accent.
I explained it again.....my question centers around whatever this MASTER FILE is and the words export/import/re-export etc...etc.... And she asked: How many shipments you expect to make, how many guitars are you planning on exporting and I'm like: I am not trying to import/export/re-export anything.
She said, (and since she had a heavy latino accent I'll paraphrase so you can understand her) : Oh, well, in that case, you don't need a certificate from the DMA or any other government/CITES authority or anybody at all. If you're not exporting or importing anything then there is nothing they can provide you with. We only deal with certifying species for IMPORT and EXPORT. She said: You need to keep documentation of where you got this wood, YOU certify that it is Pre-convention with documents and evidence that you feel proves it is pre-convention, you will want to give this to anyone who buys the guitar so THEY have this information so they can export it if they wish to.
1st question: Are you shitting me?
2nd question: d'ya think maybe somebody could've written that down somewhere in an obvious spot in the ESA or in at least one of the handy INFORMATION sheets you provide, you know write that down in a way a reasonably intelligent person who can read....can understand it?
Here are my final assumptions and posting on the topic unless folks want more info.
If you sell a guitar in the US containing BRW then you need to supply the buyer with whatever documents you think suffice to show it is pre-convention. If you buy rosewood from somebody you need to get documentation from them that you feel satisfies the claim that the wood is pre-convention. If you make a guitar out of wood you have and you sell it interstate or intrastate, you need to furnish the buyer with documents that states that the BRW is pre-convention so they can export it if they wish. It's kind of up to you what the documents consist of, there is a guide out there I read it but I thought it was for the purposes of applying for a Pre-convention certification, which again....Is something you do NOT need according to the nice Hispanic lady, who sounded very pretty by the way.....If your documents don't meet the scrutiny of the DMA cops then you’re in trouble I guess. I'd take inventory, pictures; make a paragraph about why you think it is pre-convention, sign it, take it to the bank and have it notarized, any receipts, documents etc..... If the cops come, you will need to prove yourself innocent. BUT, it really sounds like if you’re not exporting it and you aren't advertising a multi-million dollar inventory and you’re keeping your business local you shouldn't need worry about the DMA.
AND BUYER BEWARE...if your seller isn't giving you documents that look to have the process of due diligence in proving to some degree that it is pre-convention then you might stay away....if they’re trying to give you an old K-mart receipt or something that looks fishy don't accept it as a valid anything. I know this does NOT help the guys/gals that want to ship their offerings overseas.....but for my purposes I think she pretty well covered it, I asked her several times if she was SURE....she said yes, and if I have any other questions call the number again. SO, for future question concerning this issue of getting a pre-convention certificate to EXPORT your guitars to a foreign land.....get form 3-200-32 read it and write down each question you have, then call the number in the body of this post for details.....you'll probably need to call several times and be persistent but this I would say, is HOW YOU DO IT.Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Tuesday 03 June 2014, 21:38 pm It actually now kind of jives with what folks are saying on the other site.... The table in 23.55 that has everybody all worked up is for POST-CONVENTION things...made after the convention went into place. As far as a certification for PRE-Convention items....and you are not trying to export it....then a cert isn't something any government body supplies, you don't need a permit or to fill out an application, you need satisfactory documentation that the wood is Pre-convention. Inventory, pictures, signed statements by you or the folks you bought it from stating/showing it is pre-convention. (I repeat, this is for commercial USA dealings with PRE-Convention guitars/lumber/parts/etc...NOT FOR EXPORT) If folks look around there is a paragraph that I've read several times, it isn't hard to find really. It states some of the things you should have in your documentation. If it isn't satisfactory then I guess you lose. But there are a lot of things one could list on a document that doesn't PROVE without a shadow of a doubt that it IS in fact PC but gives a body of evidence that could be considered to show that it is consistent with PC wood. How long has it been in you possession ...if you've had it prior to the PC date then document it, sign it, take it to the bank and have a notary stamp it. Take full pics of your inventory, track which pieces went onto which guitars and make the info traceable with the serial number with record keeping. If you got the wood 6 weeks ago or since either 92 or 2007 I can't recall the exact dates it is in the post above and you have NOTHING...then I guess you've got nothing. If an agent of any type shows up your probably screwed no matter what you have because i'm willing to bet if they go through that kind of trouble to spend money to send an agent all the way to your little woodshop...they've already read your documentation...the docs that you sent to the buyer in the first place, they tried to export it and couldn't because your docs didn't convince anybody and the buyer calls the DMA and complains...that type of thing... I really doubt they will commit manpower or any expenses just to come check on you. They've already built a case against you. I'm not saying it can't happen, but they don't even have enough resources to answer the phone....so build a body of evidence with the things mentioned above and be able to show that you know the rules and you have done your due diligence and hope for the best eh?
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Wednesday 04 June 2014, 00:52 am Guitars made from pre-convention wood will not have any formal certifications....there were no Pre-convention certificates available before the convention; they didn't exist until only after the convention. I'm pretty sure during my travels I saw mention of a guitar passport of some type where you paper the guitars if you are going in and out of various countries. But I didn't really pay much attention as my efforts were focused on US commercial use of pre-convention wood.
If I make and sell a BRW guitar and offer it for US purchase only...and I intend to do that at some point. The guitar will come with my certification that all the components are Pre-Convention materials. I will provide my documented evidence to support my declaration....Not all of it as some of it has signatures and addresses of folks who owned the wood prior to me buying it. I will explicitly state it is not for export....But through the serial number of the guitar I will be able to show traceability to all the supporting documentation I have and will help the owner fill out the 3-200-32 form giving this person the ability to export it if they require to do so. I see no real trouble by doing this...potentially it has issues with respect to: how do I know for certain that the approving body of this application for a permit to export will accept MY documentation. Good question and the answer is....I don't know if they will. This will be explained in the sales agreement, I will make it clear...there will be no guarantee that they can export it. But therein lies the root issue out of all of this discussion, what will fly? Here is something for everybody to consider....take 10 guys making guitars out of PC BRW who certify that their wood through their own documentation and records that the wood is in fact PC. Will any of these people have an actual receipt of purchase for the materials, specifically the BRW the comprises a particular guitar? I bet most will not. How about the lucky guy that does somehow have a receipt of original purchase for the materials of the guitar from say....1973 ok, will that receipt magically give the guitar or wood a pass? I bet not...will this receipt have pictures of the wood used on the guitar, no. What would this receipt look like...well in 1973 there were no nice computer print outs with detailed descriptions of what was purchased....it won't go into any detail about what was purchased, I used to work in retail before computers, we wrote the receipts out by hand and then gave people a carbon copy. Half the time we abbreviated things or you could hardly understand what was written. What will this receipt say "wood" and a date and a price...this will prove nothing and I see most any receipt anyone might produce to be arguably not enough to prove that this guitar or even a board or a chunk of a board is actually traceable to a particular receipt. DMA and CITES and folks involved with the ESA all realize this. ALMOST NOBODY will be able to prove without a shadow that the wood is PC. So the only other realistic option is to build this body of evidence that supports that it is....you legally sign and state that it is PC and build a documentation paper trail with photos, records etc. And hope nobody comes a knocking eh? It is just the chance you take or don't sell anything. Soon, there will be big blow ups...they will make examples of folks by prosecution during enforcement and precedence will be established so folks will know what works and what doesn't. Going to be a bumpy ride.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Sunday 08 June 2014, 23:15 pm a person wrote:OK, so I have a small stack of BRW purchased in 1970, the bill of sale is long gone, and I am now a criminal. So, do I chuck the BRW into the fireplace to avoid the wrath of the US of A government?Sorry for the long post I seem to be typing a lot of them lately I do hope I'm not wearing folks out with this but.....I think I do know the answer to this question. And I do believe that if everyone does what i'm saying below for your Pre-convention stock, then you will be compliant with the law and should have nothing to fear.
And I should also add that this is for PRE June 11th 1992 wood...only the wood that you know is Pre-convention or bought with the claim that it was.
If I were in your position....and I am in the same situation for a small portion of the total inventory of BRW that I have, then I'd do what the laws tell folks in our position to do.....
Sorry, they don't explain anything. But the lady at the DMA said to document the history.
So, to do that you have to write a statement in which you declare the material is pre-convention and it ties directly to an inventory, you can't really document it if you don't include an inventory right? (my assumption) In other words a simple statement saying...MY WOOD IS FROM 1970 and a signature is too broad and it doesn't capture the materials that you have in any traceable fashion. If I put my Fish and Wildlife Enforcement tee shirt on for a minute, I'd say your statement without any supporting documentation with respect to an inventory is a blanket document. A document like that would allow you to just buy and add more wood to your pile and blanket it under one statement at a later date and that just wouldn't be acceptable. But if you took pictures and dimensions and gave each piece a unique identifying number-marked on the wood easily recognizable, and created an inventory sheet that directly corresponds with your wood. Then, create a statement of provenance saying in detail where you got it, when you got it with any names, history, state any pertinent details you were told when you bought it etc....then take it to a notary to witness your signature to give you a certifiable date of signature. You should state in the document that you have read the 50 CFR 23 rules. You should state that the information is true and to the best of your knowledge. Then as you use the wood, keep records of which pieces went where, serialize your guitars....scrap pieces can often turn into binding or marquetry so you'l want to issue new numbers that TIE them to the parent board or piece that produced the scrap. Keep the inventory current. You can't add new wood to the inventory but you must expand it to show the off-cuts and pieces that came from the mother boards.If you use the scrap on something show where/how it was used, for what, keep rock solid records and take pictures of those things....for backs and sides you can mark those pieces on the inside of the guitar but for fingerboards, headstock parts and other bits you can't mark them, so a close up picture would need to be taken. If the guitar leaves your hands then you need to somehow ensure that these stock numbers, and provenance are put into a document with your detailed signed and notarized statement of pre-convention. I'd also state that it is NOT FOR EXPORT. So, does all this make you legal? I dunno....but it shows due diligence and traceability. Provided that law enforcement couldn't search your shop and find wood that isn't on your inventory, or big HOLES in your documentation. Provided that you can take them around and show how you do what you document and document what you do then ? How would you be illegal is my question. They say you need to "clearly demonstrate" that the wood is Pre-convention -i think those are the exact words from 23.55 so....does doing all that stuff above prove that your wood is pre-convention NO, THE BIG issue for folks isn't that they don't have a statement of pre-convention, You can write that document in a day or two...the big issue will be when they walk up and pick up a piece of BRW that you using or or obviously conspiring to use for a commercial act and YOU GOT NOTHING in terms of inventory and documentation that ties that piece directly to your pre-convention declaration. THAT is where they got you for being non-compliant.I think a lot of folks are worked up thinking that they are going to be required without a shadow of a doubt PROVE the wood is Pre-convention and we all realize that that is next to impossible. Well it works both ways doesn't it, Can they PROVE that it isn't, NO! My opinion is: as long as you are squeeky clean and can DEMONSTRATE it with this method then, how can you be considered illegal? The issue will be as I said, when they find that little stick on your workbench that your about to bend into purfling and you can't tie it to your Pre-convention statement or show where it came from then you're in violation of using or conspiring to use an Appendix I species for commercial purposes without being able to clearly demonstrate that it is pre-convention. The validity of your PRe-convention statement isn't what is in question...it is rather, can you clearly demonstrate HOW a particular piece of wood is covered under your Pre-Convention statement/declaration.
Brain thoughtfully requests a High-five for that paragraph.
Re: Brazilian Rosewood To Need Proper Documentation
by Brian McCombs » Monday 09 June 2014, 01:59 am THANKS....I appreciate the high five.
But, I can’t let this alone just yet…..I read what I typed above and I’m not so sure it really hit’s the point I was trying to make, I type real fast and I’m easily distracted……I’m a hot ball of fire on the issue as you can tell so I’ve decided to have some fun with it now…..Let’s put on our slippers and sweater and PLAY PRETEND.
Suppose you bought Brazilian Rosewood in 1972 or 73 or June 10th 1992 the day before it was put on the list ok? You went to the exotic lumber yard and bought 10 BF of Brazilian Rosewood. Your mom was there, everybody was so happy about your purchase that while you were in the store handing the clerk your check she took out her Kodak 110 Instamatic camera (with a brand new flash cube) and took a picture of you holding the wood while you were handing the clerk your check. IRONICALLY he was writing out the detailed receipt at that moment. Incredibly, the camera got a great visible shot of the receipt AND you still have the photo, the receipt and the cancelled check, now all yellow with age. And your mom, bless her heart, is still with you, I mean since we are pretending why not, she has trouble getting around but she’s still sharp as a tack.
Flash forward to yesterday when me and my friends from the Fish and Wildlife Enforcement team kicked your shop door in. After you change your pants…..You pull out your picture of the receipt, and the photo clearly shows you all smiling because you got yourself some rosewood, the receipt is visible in the photo and you then produce the actual receipt and check. Your clean. You’re like Charlie in the Chocolate Factory man, you gotta Golden Ticket and you should just break into song and start dancing around like there is something wrong with you.
Now I go to your wood box, where you toss all your scrap, because I’m a seasoned officer and I don‘t like musicals.. I’ve been trained well, and I pull out from your scrap box, the off-cutting of a guitar back, the off-cut is CLEARLY from a back that you sold after building a guitar out of it. So, I say to you, while pointing at your off-cut that was obviously used in a commercial act and say…
Clearly demonstrate to me that this piece of wood is pre-convention. Clearly demonstrate to me that this piece of wood is a part of that wood in the photo and receipt…….And you can’t. You didn’t make a statement of Pre-convention, you didn’t document anything thinking the rock solid proof you have is your key. And now your sweet mother is all like “YOU DUMBASS!”
You violated 23.55 and at that point you should exercise your right to stay silent. We seem to be focused on this MAGIC receipt but as you can see from the exercise above that it means nothing. This type of proof does NOT exist. Law enforcement KNOWS that, they’ve been in my understanding, having a very difficult time proving various materials are not pre-convention….thus the new 23.55 rule. It isn’t your golden ticket that is going to keep me from going down to the bar with my enforcement buddies and drinking to the fact that we took another criminal downtown. It is when you say “hold the phone” and show me: Written on the off-cut there is a visible unique number xxxx, and then you take me to your inventory and notes where you show me when that particular back piece number XXXX was cut from mother board XXXX, then you show me traceability that the mother board was listed in your inventory attached to your Pre-convention declaration that is signed and dated to be true and to the best of your knowledge. OH and you got this other junk, a receipt and a photo and pair of pants you need to warsh cause I'm a big ugly dude. - NOW YOU CAN DANCE Because now you‘ve done what 23.55 says you must do - clearly demonstrate it is pre-convention…..and much to my surprise you then show me that the back piece was used on guitar number xxxx was sold to my brother on an auction site as he really likes Brazilian Rosewood guitars.
I hope folks who already understands this stuff doesn’t find my example above to be condescending in in any way, I don‘t mean it to be…it‘s just how I think, I think they call it right brained? Or is it right brian-ed?
I’ve been all screwed up the last few weeks, trying to fill out nonsensical forms, calling the freaking government, thought about turning myself in and asking for amnesty….worried about what I’m going to say to my kids…..I’ve been through a whole bunch of turmoil over it and would’ve liked for somebody to explain it in simple terms a few weeks ago. PRIOR to my purchase would have been great. I’m no lawyer but I’m pretty sure I’ve got it right….Documentation will set you free. Nobody in Government is telling you how to comply. But, if you’ve got all your stuff all aligned properly as I show above, organized to some standard that you create ….then it seems like they would consider you part of the solution instead of the problem.
Last edited by Brian McCombs on Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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