Official Luthiers Forum!

I am working on my new shop. I have a walk out Ranch style home with a two story garage. When I added the garage on I made it a 2 story and the lower half to be my shop. It is attached to the house on one side, earth bermed on 2 sides with one side walk out(Bottom of drawing). I am just putting the studs and wiring in now and have been starting to look at a floor plan that will have good flow for building guitars. Since some of you have been doing this for a while I am sure you have found issues with your set up and have re-arranged your shops for better work flow.

Since I am new to building guitars I would like to try to avoid some of the typical mistakes in setting up a shop so I am asking for any ideas or suggestions you may have to help the work flow.

The drawing shows my existing shop which was used for repair and the new one which is pretty much a blank canvas. I did have a small spray booth in the lower right corner which has been removed now but I still have the opeining for the exhaust fan where it is marked "Future Doors". About the only real restriction I have is that my 220 line is installed where you see the band saws I have my new Laguna and the old Craftsman which I plan on keeping for small scroll work, I have the typical stuff like belt sander, spindle sander, drill press etc... I will also be adding a drum sander pretty soon.

Anyway, I would be interested in hearing what you may have discovered to help your work flow in your shop.

Thanks
Bob

Lucky you RusRob. Wish I had that kind of space.
You can check my site for photos, but a table saw in the middle is good. I have a sliding outfeed table that doubles as a workbench for my small shop. It's been this way for over 30 years now, and it works well. Note the well stationed bandsaw and sanders near the bench...

Work flow and logistics depends a lot on how big your production is, the number and types of machines and work stations, and the size and geometry of your shop. For a typical small scale builder's shop it is usually acceptable with some rigging of specialty jigs etc. before certain operations, whereas if you production is bigger, these work stations have to be always ready to go (bending machines, binding jigs, neck jigs, buffers and what not).

For a new shop, I would concentrate on humidity control, a good floor, natural lighting and good dust collection, most everything else is a bonus. I would consider dividing your space, with one room for machines and one for bench work, it makes it a lot easier to control dust. Finishing of course in a separate space.

There are some pictures from my "two room" shop, as well as many other nice shops, in this thread

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43029&p=568767&hilit=workshop#p568767

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

@Haans, I would love to see your shop, do you have a link?

@Arnt,

What a great shop! Nothing wrong with small if you are that orginized. It looks like you have thought everything out very well. I specifically like your island work bench. and have always wanted to do something like that but never had the space.

My old shop was pretty much contained in the 12 X 20 room but I only had about 12 X 12 usable space because of needing access to the garage. The new shop was built a number of years ago but was mainly storage space except for my Table saw and Radial Arm saw and didn't have electric run other than the sub panel box so anything I needed to do was run off of an extension cord and the only light I had was a single 4" florescent light.

Now that I finally decided to finish it I have six 4' T5 High Output lights that I am installing so I will have plenty of light (these old eyes don't work as good as they use to in dim light). I don't have any windows so I need good lighting.

I plan on using the new shop for more than just guitars and I am not planning on any kind of production but I do want to set it up for guitars first and other projects second. Since I have an exhaust fan I am planning on building a booth in the lower right corner of the shop and am thinking wood storage in the upper right. Since I started working on it I put a de-humidifier in there and so far it appears I can maintain 45 to 50% humidity. I still have to put in an overhead furnace since I want to isolate it from the house system.

Thanks for the suggestions and pictures of your shops, It all helps in trying to figure out how best to set mine up.

Cheers,
Bob

Right here...

http://www.brentrup.com/page3/page3.html

Careful, only one visitor at a time...

I like to group some machines, often into 'islands'. It can make dust collection ducting easier (1 big diameter drop then branches) and walkways bigger. It works well for machines that have at least one side where stock never needs to go (bandsaws, belt/disc sanders, miter saws...).

Also plan for dust collection as a high priority. Long runs with many elbows make for weak flow. To control blower noise, put it in a closet or large box (with sound insulation), or outside and use mufflers on the inlet and outlet. Put the worst offenders (sanders) near the collector for best flow.

_________________
David Malicky

How are you going to get the cars up to the second floor?

I would second the comments by Arnt. Controlling dust is the biggest concern for me, but humidity and temperature are a close 2nd behind. It's all important.
That said, I would wall off a portion for all the clean work that doesn't make any dust (bench, as Arnt said) but then go past that another level for a spray booth. The more barriers between the dust and the spraying area the better.
As far as power goes, I found that a lot of my shop power tools had motors that could be wired 110 or 220, so I wired them all at 220. It seems to make them more efficient, and the motors don't seem to heat up as much, especially the edge sander. Running new electrical is an easy process, and if you need to, adding a sub-panel for the shop can be very helpful. That's what I did. It keeps me from kicking off breakers anywhere else in the house.
You have a great space there! I would just try to arrange things so that you work from messy to clean as much as possible... as in keep things that produce the most dust as far from the bench and spray areas as possible. If you don't have a great dust collector....start there.
I have visited Mark Campellone's shop a few times, and you can't possibly imagine how clean it is! you could eat off the floors, and there is no dust anywhere to be found... I'm quite envious!

Edit:
At all costs... try to give as much space to the clean / bench area as possible. It is way too easy for things to happen to a guitar once it is together and working in tight quarters. Make some good room for storage of instruments in progress with the necks attached.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I'm in the planning stage too. One thing I am going to have for sure is a bench in the center taht I can walk around.

Thanks for your suggestions guys, I know I have to control dust but I have not placed it #1 on the list but I will now place that at the top of my list. I was thinking more of humidity since it has always been pretty humid in there. I didn't realize how humid it was until I actually checked it prior to putting the insulation and starting the stud walls. It was actually 90% when I started and now that I have insulation in place it is down to 45-50% (with a dehumidifier). I was also thinking about heat but I will start to think about dust control. I am planning on using my existing shop for the "clean" room since that is actually in the basement of the house and is separated from the big shop by a single door. I may have to re-think where to put the spray booth but you have given me some good things to think about that had not really been on my mind.

@Haans, It looks like you are quite well organized as well and from the looks of it you have settled in to a well worn shop (kind of like a good old pair of shoes). I have been looking at building a down draft sanding table out of an old canister shop vac I have. Do you find you use it all the time and is it something you would recommend having? I always wondered if guys actually use them after they build them.

@meddlingfool


Actually it isn't a "garage" it only has a garage on the upper floor. I added the garage when we first moved in and my builder said it wouldn't cost that much to add the shop below so that is what I did. I just never had the money to actually finish the shop because the house needed so much work. I finally decided no matter what I was going to get my shop.

Here is a picture from outside taken a number of years ago when I was spending my money putting in the retaining wall...

And a shot of the view if I had windows to actually look out. I wish I had put at least one window in down there but it's too late now. I did have the forsight to put those big windows in my garage above though.

Cheers,
Bob

Shame someone parked a Reatta behind your house (zing!!)

I moved out of my basement 10 years ago to a 30' x 30' building which I have modified constantly and think I'm there now.
I pretty much copied Charles Fox's shop for starters.

A few thoughts-Many have already been stated. Haans' shop is the most efficient use of a small space I've ever seen. His spray booth which isolates air in and out from the shop air is amazing. Arndt's shop is another of my favorites from his pictures.

Dust collection is #1, your lungs and sinuses will thank you. Biggest unit you can afford and at least a 6" main line. Places like Oneida will draw up a ductwork plan for you that maximizes flow. I didn't do that at first and it was a mistake.

A powerful downdraft sanding table.

If not too late floor heat, otherwise insulate well for good temp and humidity control. Consider something like the Green Air THC-1 total humidity controller to run your machines. The sensors on the machines themselves are not that great. i've had the THC-1 for about 5 years and it has performed flawlessly.

A clean assembly room. Consider island workbenches with a go bar deck over one. As far as wall cabinets for storage cheap prefab Home Depot kitchen bases topped with two layers of HD particle board work great. My islands are Charles Fox's design, particle board boxes bolted together in various patterns with T-nuts and carriage bolts on the bottom to level. Top with one layers of 3/4" HD particle board and one layer of 3/4" Melamine. Use shelves inside for storage.

A sink, fridge for your hide glue and beer, and a microwave if it's not easy to run in the house.

The biggest compressor you can afford so you will have the option of using Dynabrade style sanders. Pipe the shop with drops where you need them. You'll find yourself using compressed air for a lot of stuff.

Plenty of room for storage including wood. You will accumulate a lot of stuff.

If the floor is concrete paint it with that epoxy garage floor stuff.

Here are a few shots of mine. I just re-piped all the dust lines from 4" to 6" and cleaned it. It is as clean as it's ever been.
Has never looked this good.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Looks like a cool space! Windows are not that hard to put in, even after the fact. The other bit of advise is a lot of wall space, shelfs and cabinets. Storage is really important otherwise your benches will always be stacked with stuff.

_________________
http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

To make your floor space as versatile as possible, put as many tools and work benches on locking wheels as possible. Keep ducting for dust collection as straight and short as you can, and keep the flexible ducting to a minimum.
Don't forget to get a good fire extinguisher and a first aid kit. Better safe than sorry!

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Wow, You actually knew what the car was. 5 bonus point for you Having worked in body shops for years I have always bought and sold cars that I knew had value. I picked that car up for a song and made a few coins on it. Just needed to find the right buyer. it only had about 10,000 miles on it. That picture was taken about 10 years ago, I wish I had 3 or 4 more of those cars... The Reatta was a pretty cool little 2 seater. After I fixed it my wife drove it for a bit and didn't want me to sell it but as they say "money talks".



@Terence,
Love your shop setup and some excellent tips. I can see a number of things I will be copying from you... The side by side islands are a great idea. And something I have not really thought about that you mention is storage space. The one thing I wish I had done is brought water and drainage into but I didn't.

@johnparchem

In this case they are, This space is 8" poured concrete walls with pre-stressed concrete ceiling/floor for the upper garage (the same stuff they use in industrial parking garages). The advantage is I have no support posts in the space below.

@Alex Kleon


Great suggestion and something I will keep in mind.



Having worked in body shops that is something I have always kept handy. And I have one drawer in my roll around toolbox dedicated to first aid stuff.
But it is a great suggestion for anyone in a shop environment.

Great suggestions guys, I think I am starting to get focus on the planning of my space. I also love seeing and hearing about other peoples shops and setups.

Cheers,
bob

I have a downdraft table about 24" x 42" and I use it all the time. It is hooked to an Oneida Dust Gorilla with 7" duct so it flows a lot of air. I even put the troji next to it when I'm sanding sides with the roller drum and it catches most of that. I don't have a photo here but the inside is basically an inverted pyramid shape with the dust collector connection at the bottom. Top is Masonite over plywood. As best I remember the Masonite has 1/4" holes on a 1" hole pattern, plywood has 3/8" holes on the same pattern.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Steve,
I would be really interested in seeing your design for it. Do you vent it into your shop or does it exit outside? I have a couple of old canister shop vac's that I no longer use and was thinking of using to build a sanding table. I currently have an 800 CFM Delta dust extractor that I usually just route the hose to a collector that I sit on my bench when I sand but it doesn't get all the dust unless I am sanding right near the collector. I have seen a few downdraft sanding tables and I like the idea. When I get ready to build it I will do some searching on the topic but in the meantime I it is nice to hear what others are using.

I know now to put dust collection on the top of my list so I am open to ideas on the subject.

Cheers,
Bob

Some great ideas here. I'm thinking about doing dust collection or just doing what I did with my old shop and make dust outside in nature. It does get a bit chilly in the winter though. I too would love to see pics and plans for down draft tables.

I can't recommend a good dust collector highly enough. It is a lot of expense for a tool that doesn't cut or sand but I think it was one of the best investments I made in my shop. Mine vents to the inside and when it runs long enough it heats the air up a bit but it's livable.

I could only find a few photos from when I built it but should be enough to get the idea.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks for posting the pic's Steve, It looks pretty simple to build and I would think something like pegboard would work well for the top. I double checked on my dust collector and it is an 800 CFM Dayton (not a Delta). It is a 2 stage unit but I am not sure it is big enough to do what I need. I think my Laguna Band saw instructions said it should have a minimum of 1,000 CFM. The inlet on my Dayton is only 4" so I am not sure it will have enough volume to do a 20 foot run which will be about my longest run. Although I don't think having 2 units would be a bad thing... I guess I will need to start looking for a larger one that I can afford. I am going to be adding a drum sander so I am sure I will need something bigger for that alone.

I do think I can build a decent downdraft sanding table using one of my old canister vac's though. After looking at how you built yours it looks like it would be easy to just have the "funnel" empty into the canister.

Thanks again for posting that.

Cheers,
Bob

I have a big shop (2400 sq ft.). I walled off some obvious areas...a spray room...an office and storage area. But I left the main room open and only placed shop tables about as a starter. The idea was that after I built a number of guitars I'd have a MUCH better idea of how to lay out the place, what stations to create, and what each station should entail.

I'm in the process right now of finalizing the shop design.

I found that my biggest issue is looking for tools. I'm constantly wandering around wondering where I put that "thing"....very irritating. Obviously, having a station for each operation and having all the tools necessary for that operation organized within that station is a good plan. Some stations will certainly be multiple purpose.

Rather than having permanent vacuum ducts installed I've chosen to locate all the dust producing tools within a local area isolated by a thick, hanging plastic sheet. I use a big cnc machine that cannot be fitted with a vacuum collection system. Since it makes most of the dust in my shop, and since I'm stuck sweeping up around it...it makes sense to have everything else that makes dust near it in a small area...and sweeping up to deal with everything. I've design tables and stands for each that will allow for easy sweeping over to a floor collection duct.

The only thing outside of the plastic that will make dust is sanding and I plan on a sanding station with a downdraft table...more like a booth though. You want to make sure ALL the air is going in one direction so that when you use compressed air to clean...everything goes through the system instead of up into a cloud. It only takes a little squirrel cage fan (very quiet typically) to do this. A booth with a small fan will function quite a bit better than an open area with a high powered fan.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Stuart,
That is a really nice open space shop you have. I am fond of open space like that. I guess having worked in body shops I prefer wide open space. Something I didn't have with my old workspace. My new one isn't nearly as large as yours but I would like to keep it open rather than walling it off into small spaces.



What is funny is in my personal life that is what I always have done but in my professional life I am the opposite. When I was in the body shop I knew where everything was and didn't leave anything laying around. Same with repairing guitars, my tools are usually in their place if I am not using them. But have me do a project on the house (which I have many) I can never find anything!!! I can be working in one place and never move and still loose tools.

I am curious what you have on your ceiling in your shop? I noticed it right away that is is quite glossy. I am currently looking at materials to do my ceiling which is pre-stressed concrete slabs. They are only 8'2" so I am limited to what I use. I am currently looking at Thermax which is glass based 4X8 insulation board that has a white or silver finish which doesn't need to be covered for fire protection.

Bob

I started with a Delta dust collector with a 4" input so had a 4" main line. I upgraded to an Oneida 3hp cyclone and the 4" main line was not satisfactory. Going to 6" was an amazing improvement.

If you can start with a bigger unit and ductwork and lay it out properly it will save you the trouble of upgrading and re-doing the ductwork later because if you intend to build on a professional level you WILL want better dust collection.

I built a sanding table that ran off my Delta dust collector but it was not as well thought out as the one shown. It was not that great. I finally broke down and bought a commercial unit. It is absolutely amazing and is one of my better investments. You could probably build a similar unit with a big furnace fan and appropriate filters.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Not really for guitar building but if you can set up your table saw so if you open a door you can run 20' stock thru.

_________________
Michael F Smith
Goat Rock Ukulele
http://goatrockukulele.com

That's just drywall with a primer and a glossy white paint. I made it glossy to help reflect light. That was a good idea...it works pretty well.

I actually am quite organized but at the moment I don't have everything in its place because I haven't made the place yet. Truth is....that's the only way I can function...to have a place for everything and everything in its place. I'm probably on the autistic side of the fence.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic