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What if the guitar comes free with the purchase of the case and cleaning cloth for $8,000...?

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

Wouldn't have taken me 3 years to decide.

Of course, I would have killed some TSA guys before they locked me up.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Thanks for the loan of $8,000, and, oh, here is this guitar you can hold as collateral until I pay you back...

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Someone posted this link on another forum for determining if what you have is d. nigra:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fpl_rp632.pdf?

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ELEVATE || Next Level Lutherie
http://elevatelutherie.com
&
http://ensorguitars.com

So I suspect authorities will just shoot first ask questions later? I can see that confiscation and destruction of valuable instruments not being seen as punishments but if they want to pursue a felony conviction they do have to prove that you are in violation of the law. Meaning if they had to determine whether a set of paperwork can be matched to a particular piece(s) of wood it would be harder.

Also it means any unscrupulous dealers who are holding a large stash of undocumented BRW may try to falsify documentations to be able to sell them. Unless they RFID tag every piece of wood linking it to a particular shipment at the time of shipment...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

When you read the document Chris Ensor linked to above, you find that things are not as cut and dried as some might like, and a good lawyer could probably make hay with it. Some specimens that were labeled as one wood behaved like the other, so they decided they must have been mislabeled, rather than that those qualities (density and fluorescence) might vary within the species (which would make their tests inconclusive).
Has anyone tested their wood using the extractives test?

I noticed the definitive 'D. spruceana density is > 1 g/cm^3 and D. nigra is < 1 g/cm^3' test. I guess that means if your guitar floats it's D. nigra, if it sinks it's Amazon rosewood. Case closed.

Reminds me of the witchcraft trial thing... if she floats, she's a witch, if she sinks, she's not.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I'm quite familiar with that publication. The result for heartwood samples WERE conclusive and the fluorescence test has been accepted for CITES enforcement application in the US. It was only samples with sapwood, which contain a MUCH lower quantity of extractives, where fluorescence was inconclusive. Furthermore, the work at Kew Gardens has isolated the unique flavonoid Dalnigrin, which is likely the main non-fluorescent compound in D. nigra heartwood, and it can be verified through a separate chemical analysis. D. nigra CAN be reliably and convincingly identified.

I indicated earlier that DNA technologies, while not yet in application for CITES rosewood enforcement, are possible to both "barcode" samples as to species, and to "fingerprint" different wood samples as originating from a given tree or log. If a guitar maker had a certified pre-CITES log, he could indeed have its DNA fingerprint recorded and all subsequent pieces utilized would be traceable and convincingly linked to the pre-CITES certification of that log. There is a cost involved, but I can put you in touch with private labs with the capability of developing DNA traceability. There is no question this is where CITES enforcement is headed.

But frankly, I'd have to ask why anyone would regard this as worthwhile. You would have to be a wood worker on a different planet not to realize that D. nigra and other endangered plant and wildlife were being ruthlessly exploited for decades by greedy thieves with no regard for the species or the forest in which it occurs. D. nigra has been on Appendix 1 since 1992! If you thought you bought material from a reputable dealer, I would ask if you really think there was a reliable chain of custody and did you take the trouble to obtain documentation, when it has been clear for many years that this material has serous issues linked to it. The evidence suggests that the majority of Brazilian in the marketplace is NOT as it is/was described. How willing are importers to look the other way and play dumb? Case in point: Gibson, a reputable guitar maker in the US, was clearly prepared to pay for and use wood from Madagascar, even though they knew the high likelihood was that it was illegally harvested. What makes you think that other supply chains for tropical timbers are any more reliable?

The CITES group are working hard to make possible the legitimate use and sale of guitars and other items with Appendix 1 materials. Once an item has its documentation, it can travel and be sold quite freely (unless the border agent doesn't like you attitude). But, if I had Brazilian in my stash (I don't), I'd be unloading it while there are still folks out there willing to pay a stupid price for it. You see, I don't really feel sorry for builders who have this stuff, but then I'm in the business of forest resource management and I'm painfully aware of the extent of illegal logging.

I'm under the impression, gained through acquaintance with somebody who owns property on the Brazilian coast, and has BRW trees, that a lot of the 'illegal' logging going on there is due as much to stupid laws and corruption as unscrupulous greed. He'd love to manage his property in a sustainable way to preserve the forest ecosystem and still pull out some rosewood. There's no reason this can't be done, except that, as he puts it, it's illegal for him to cut a tree, period, or even sell the wood from one that falls in a storm or flood. If he's caught he's fined, and the wood is confiscated, only to show up later in the hands of one of the old logging concerns, where he can buy it back if he wants it. As a result, the only option he has for making a living off his land is to farm it. Typically (and I don't know if this is his plan) the forest is cleared by a 'lightening strike'. These occur near roads when nobody is looking, and the lightening comes in cans from the local gas station. I saw a photograph of one such area: it was covered in burned stumps with flat tops about 3-4 feet off the ground. Peculiar.

Of course, once the land is cleared and farmed it only lasts for a few years. The soil is basically sand, which does not hold nutrients in the heavy rain of the coastal rain forest. BRW is a 'keystone' species; a legume that produces excess nitrogen for other plants, and has deep roots to bring up minerals. Once it's gone the soil fertility drops off quickly, and you're left with scrub. It might be possible by use of 'bio-char' to effect a sustainable agricultural regime, and that, in itself, would take a lot of pressure of rosewood, but that's another matter.

It has long been my opinion, even before I spoke with him, that the CITES model is unlikely to work with rosewood. If the demand is somehow driven to zero, so that the trees have no market value at all, then they will simply be cleared away, legally or not, to make way for farming and ranching. No matter how economically marginal that is, it beats starving when you can't make any money off the wood. Certainly the demand side needs to be addressed, but absent any work on the supply end we're just likely to produce a different sort of disaster. Of course, this will require better laws and better enforcement in Brazil, and there's not much we can do about that.

Yea good luck with that, Brazil is probably one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and the government will defend that heavily (inappropriate use of force, for example). That is according to one Brazilian I know who finds life hard there...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

On the identification of wood.

According to my research.

D.Nigra is not soluble in water and has no florescence in a water extraction.
D. spruceana is soluble in water and has Blue florescence in a water extraction.

D.nigra ethanol extraction is greenish-blue 
D.spruceana ethanol extraction is Blue.

D.nigra is lower density and will float in water.
D.spruceana is higher density  and will sink.

Over the weekend I tested 20 samples. Including stuff I was sure was D.nigra because of the smell, the look and because it floated in water.

All of the samples showed florescence in water extraction which means they cannot be D.nigra since D.nigra does not fluoresce in water.

I got both Green fluorescence = Negative for D.nigra (unknown species) and Blue fluorescence = Positive for D.spruceana in the water extraction.

The uv I'm using is 395 nm LED light.
I'm going to try a florescent blacklight next with a shorter wavelength in case that makes a difference.

I need to do more testing before I can confirm my results.
I might be making a mistake somewhere.

BTW the test is super easy to do and it uses very little wood.  Just a few shavings.

Any thoughts ?
Elman

Below are pics in natural light and in long wave uv of the water extractions.

Sir Bedevere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
Peasant 1: Are there? What are they? Tell us.
Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Peasant 1: Burn them.
Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
Peasant 1: More witches!
Peasant 2: Wood.
Sir Bedevere: So. Why do witches burn?
Peasant 3: Because they're made of... wood?
Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?
Peasant 1: Build a bridge out of her.
Sir Bedevere: Ah! But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 1: Oh yeah.
Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
Peasant 1: No, no, it floats! It floats! Throw her into the pond!
Sir Bedevere: What else floats in water?
Peasant 1: Bread!
Peasant 2: Apples!
Peasant 3: Very small rocks!
Peasant 1: Cider!
Peasant 2: Gravy!
Peasant 3: Cherries!
Peasant 1: Mud!
Peasant 2: Churches! Churches!
Peasant 3: Lead! Lead!
King Arthur: A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: Exactly! So, logically...
Peasant 1: If she... weighs the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore?
Peasant 2: A witch!
Crowd: A witch! A witch!

I have a bunch of Luthier's Mercantile receipts from early 1992 with lots of blank spaces and major photoshop skills….not that I'm suggesting I might do something with those blank spaces…..

How much?
Not that I'm suggesting I would buy falsified documents...

I hope you are joking.

Tim Mullin wrote:
"You see, I don't really feel sorry for builders who have this stuff, but then I'm in the business of forest resource management and I'm painfully aware of the extent of illegal logging."

Alan Carruth wrote:
"Typically (and I don't know if this is his plan) the forest is cleared by a 'lightening strike'. These occur near roads when nobody is looking, and the lightening comes in cans from the local gas station. I saw a photograph of one such area: it was covered in burned stumps with flat tops about 3-4 feet off the ground. Peculiar. "

Alan's experience has been similar to what I have encountered. I used to work in the environmental conservation field. One group I worked with was trying to identify the habitats of a threatened species of turtle. The other conservation group was draining these same areas to "improve" the land for agricultural production. Both were working on the public dime.
I am a strong believer in conservation, but I believe resource management (Forest or otherwise) also includes the responsible use of a resource, and that laws making a resource worthless to the people who own it don't help. BRW might make as good Bio-char as any other species.

I'm not so sure that undocumented wood will become worthless.Last year I built a brw for a customer with documented brw. He was under the impression that all brw was illegal.He never asked to see papers, he could of cared less.The fact that he thought it was illegal made it more inticing.Human nature.Some people want what they can't or not supposed to have.How about proabiition and pot.Some people made a lot of money.My next scheduled commission is also documented brw.This customer also thought it was illegal, but willing to pay a premium.

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Seriously instead of having it CITES listed why can't Brazil somehow try to profit from it sustainably? You know farm the stuff, cut one tree down and plant another one, etc.

I mean ivory could be removed from elephants without killing them (cut them off and they grow back) so instead of making it illegal they could have managed it better and everyone would benefit. But evidently that's too much to ask of corrupt governments who do not see past the next few years.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I wanna meet the elephant tusk farmer lol.

It's as simple as sheering sheep they said.......
It'll be easy they said.....
Gentle giants they said.....

Haha

Well obviously they can tranqulize the elephants before doing stuff to them, just like performing vet procedures on bears and lions.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

More fun when they are awake able to put up a fight. It could be a new sport!

Yes, I'm too old for Federal Prison and to poor to buy my way out. It is absurd that there can't be an amnesty program for a 6 months to declare inventories and offer up a notarized document in good faith with all the history that you know of you sets. Up to a set number of sets. So there is not a complete loss of value or stock.

Part of the idea behind the total ban is that any commerce creates demand, which then leads to poaching. That's what lead tot her ivory ban, as I understand it. Elephant herds had been growing and needed to be culled to keep the numbers in line with available resources. Rather then burn the ivory, they decided to sell it, with certification, and use the money for conservation. This coincided with a big increase in the middle class in China, where ivory carvings have long been a luxury item. The availability of small amounts of legal ivory increased demand (it was now possible to get something that had been unavailable before), and prices skyrocketed. The poachers noticed, and elephant herds have been decimated.

It's a real quandary.

Sounds like fun. You hold him down I'll cut off his tusks. Lol


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No, YOU!

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Waddy

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