Official Luthiers Forum!

Deleted by author do to lack of interest

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I have seen a few failures of pinless bridges where the ball ends of the strings acted as wedges and split the bridge in two along the string hole line, a catastrophic failure. The bottom of the bridge remained firmly bonded to the top. These were all Ovations.

Deleted by author do to lack of interest

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Classic. Graceful. I like it.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Hi Ken,

I am no repair expert, but I did this pinless a few years ago and just did some tweaks on this guitar about a month ago. It is a glue down with 192 hide, with no mechanical extras, I used hide to ease the repair in case it failed. It is as tight as the day it was glued and this guitar lives with a college student in an apartment. He plays daily and rarely cases it, it certainly has been through a little trauma. Nice tone and response on this guitar, I think the weight saving of no bridge plate helps a bit, but that is just speculation.

Tim

Ken, I'm sorry I can't help with the bridge system but may I ask what "dolphin bracing" is? That's a new term to me so just curious. Thanks.

I wouldn't waste time with bolts or dowels. If the glue joint fails the bolts won't do much but keep the bridge from literally falling off.

Ken,

I assume you'll be doing it with George Lowden's blessing so why not ask him what he'd recommend for a pinless bridge on a "Lowden" kit guitar?

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Deleted by author do to lack of interest

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Deleted by author do to lack of interest

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I'm sorry, but you say you're going to market a Lowden style 'O' guitar with Dolphin Bracing and a pinless bridge! Have you spoken to George about this rip-off? It would seem only good manners to ask him first, certainly if you are in any way going to use his name and the term Dolphin bracing. He is a really nice bloke so give him a call.

It does say in your profile that you are a professional, why not market a kit of one of your own original design then, or maybe you could market an Olsen kit, though of course as he is on the same continent, you may find a lawyers letter landing on your mat.

I find this deeply disrespectful to one of the finest guitar builders in the world to use his name for commercial gain.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Deleted by author do to lack of interest

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Of the failures I have seen I have seen 4 of this design , they were that had no plate under the bridge the top bulges and they separate off the top. I had seen one with a bolt that actually came through the top.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Deleted by author do to lack of interest

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Yes Ken I agree, the angle looks steep partly because that pic was taken before the saddle height was finalized. I think I took the pic about an hour after the guitar was strung for the first time.

I was very happy to see that the guitar has held up so well, it is buttery smooth with a ton of complexity and great tonal separation. It was made as a personal prototype and the young man who owns it fell in love with it and his father purchased it from me as a graduation gift. I explained to him my skepticism selling it and agreed to credit the sales price for another guitar if the bridge failed, but so far so good. Truth be known it is a great way to test an idea IMO because the guitar gets so much play and it's not a "case queen".

I must add one thing though. Pinless bridges are a pain to set up. I have messed with a few drawings with slots to remove the ball ends from the bridge. Someday.

Tim

I don't mean to pile on here, but I can see the original post has been edited to disclude any mention of making a "Lowden" kit guitar marketable to the public. Subsequent posts pointing out the shadiness of that act have been ignored. I'm a big fan of George Lowden and even if I weren't, I find it really distasteful to do such a thing. I guess we all build Martin rip-offs, so I'd be interested to hear your reasoning and justification behind building a Lowden copy for profit, Ken. Am I blowing this out of proportion? It seems I'm not alone.

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sweat the small stuff.

I guess it depends if Lowden has a patent on his design.

People have been copying luthiers for many many years and if a patent has been applied for it is illegal to copy the design.

Martin created the X bracing that almost every manufacture and independent luther has copied to either exact specifications or loosely based on it but Martin didn't patent the idea and didn't care if it was copied.

I am not opposed to copying a design but I am against patent infringement. I don't know the answer so I won't make any judgment on the issue.

Bob

Wow, guess I was the naive one here thinking that anyone offering a kit with another's name on it was doing it with that luthier's permission. Judging by the deleted posts I'd have to guess that was not the case. Live and learn.

Tim

18 posts seems a fair amount of interest!

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

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MK5acoustics.com

As a late-comer to this thread, it took me awhile to figure out what had been written in the deleted posts. It'll take longer to get over the spelling.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I missed the spelling. Too funny!

Perhaps the author should have removed the posts due (do) to lack of agreement.

Topic synopsis

This thread was supposed to be about various attachment methods that might be used when installing pin-less steel string guitar bridges. Unfortunately after some some really pertinent, interesting information had already been posted things went south and the thread morphed in content and took on most of the elements that tend to give forums bad reputations and ultimately lead to having the most knowledgeable professionals leave the membership mix.

Things went south when two lovable Brits (who after 5000 posts collectively have been thanked (2) times for their content) decided to start a sh** storm with some sanctimonious ill informed assertions and statements relative to a comment I made about a guitar kit which “may be” released latter this summer. George Lowden is in fact a very nice guy and for sure has been an inspiration to many up and coming guitar makers. And yes if a kit comes to fruition, George's use of common construction elements will be the inspiration for an Irish Jumbo. Those members that think this natural progression of guitar design is a nefarious activity – need to stop building guitars right now!!

One has to tip a hat to Lowden, subliminally or by intent he has taken the J200 to a different place. By downsizing, using Ervin Somogyi's tall thin brace strategy (dolphin, torpedo, airfoil etc. shaped braces have been in use forever) Modern Martin “A” frame upper bout bracing and a pin-less bridge (available on Ebay). A monster flat picking guitar has been transformed into a finger picker's alternate tuning standout.

All that said, I feel that it is the attention to detail at the Lowden production facility (which is kind of like a factory) that makes Lowden's very special.

As for the inference that there is some sort of infringement – trust me those of us with real businesses over thirty years old have the legal help and wherewithal to know what is ethical and what crosses the line.

I did notice that Trevor choose to post, we could ask him how he avoids patent violations with his published and sold neck design which is at least very similar to the patented Taylor NT neck
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/ac ... es/nt-neck

Lastly on the subject of grammar and spelling errors – really?, mine was the first you guys ever saw in 565,000 or so posts? and its humorous and note worthy? Really? And I have to wonder about motive of the guy who is a moderator at the BC kit forum after three years membership making his one and only post in this thread? Hmmm

I think we can better serve the guitar making community. To most thank you for reading – haters go for it!

All the best

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Well, Ken, I have to say I find your reaction to this thread very strange and somewhat defensive.

Except for this bit:


...which is obviously a straight out attack on me, which I find very offensive.

If you study the Taylor patent, which I doubt you have, the thing that is patented is adjustment of the neck angle via the use of "calibrated" laser cut wedges. Not that people haven't been using wedges under bolt on necks (e.g. Strats) for years, but that's a different matter. The double tenon design that I use has been around in various forms for years (and Bob's is more like a single tenon, uses different attachment hardware, is built completely differently, doesn't have truss rod support through to the end of it, etc. etc., but that's neither here nor there, I suppose).

So, sorry to disappoint you, but no patent infringements here.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au