Official Luthiers Forum!

The thing about search is that members come and go. So if you do a search on a topic then you will miss the opinion of the member who just joined last week and is the greatest luthier ever and is full of the sagest of advice. I do search but I only go down a few pages of results. If the topic is old I don't think it's so bad to refresh it

Now back on topic... Epoxy, I'm not going to slather plastic all over my beautifully created work of art!

I kid... I kid...

It is too bad that the bb software has such a poor search function. I am one that searches on a topic. The problem I have is that the search is a simple word match search on all the text on a forum. It would really help if it could be constrained to text in the post subject. I always have to filter through many comments where my search terms are used in side comments from unrelated posts.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

I have been thinking about some system to organize the topics so they are readily searchable. It's not easy in only a forum format. When I search something I end up getting lots of unrelated threads. One day we should get a sub forum of some sort where threads like this can be saved. Specifically with content that is repeated and where some new members can look through without bugging and bothering the older (not age related) members for info and opinions.

A good example of a search is searching for a new plane. Now try putting a phrase in the search and not turn up hundreds of unrelated content.

Now I am not positive and it would be good to get a collective thoughts on this. Maybe it would be wise for us to store the info on purpose for instance create the thread knowing it will be repeated, in a sub forum, with a clearly stated title. Then have members give their input without extra comments only info/opinion. It sounds like work because it is work. It is one way though for other members to stop asking questions that are repeated throughout time. I must say that I do not think the suggested idea is perfect and has flaws, but we could discuss this and find a solution. Perhaps in a thread by itself. I see where both Mike and Hesh are coming from and for me both are not wrong nor right.

Apologies to Taifu for taking away from this topic.

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久保
美智え

So I want to get some proper oil based filler. I notice places like the UK and EU have looser shipping regulations because I have seen them ship things that you can't ship in the US such as tru oil or lacquer. So the question is are there any UK sellers selling oil based wood filler?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I am hearing both sides of the "search" conversation -- both valid, it was this very issue that lead to me set up AGC Forum like this

http://www.acousticguitarconstructionforum.com/

Note it is like an index --- The subs themselves stay on point and give a clue where to look for or leave help.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Yes I am. Below is attached of pic of a microbead filled walnut neck sealed with shellac and under nitro. (The soundbox was filled with z-poxy.)

I've also used it under Rockhard varnish, and french polished shellac.

I haven't had any issues with shrink back. The trick with this stuff is to dilute it like you would with oil based paste filler, and put it on in two applications, pretty much the same way. I've always let it dry a couple days before proceeding.

http://www.behlen.co.uk/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=behlen

Search : Grain FIller

PORE-O-PAC is the oil base. Only comes in 3 shades.

I use Natural or Mahogany as a base depending on if I need a light or dark filler then tint to match using Mixol universal tints

Thanks Greg, nice finish and guitar btw. I really like the backstrip.

Chuck

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Greg, it appears to me that you've got that finish process DOWN! Absolutely beautiful! Congratulations.

I've used Timbermate on my last two builds (both black walnut with ebony filler). It's easy to apply, dries fast, and sands easily. People have complained about it's unusual smell, but I don't find it offensive.

I have tried Behlen water based filler and it seemed to work pretty well. It did have a distinctive smell to it but it wasn't offensive. The guitar is my own (Gibson J-40) and it still looks good today and it is a couple of years old now. It reminded me a bit of drywall compound (although I have never tried drywall compound on wood). The guitar was finished in Behlen Vinyl Sealer and Lacquer and so far it has held up just fine. The only small thing I didn't care for was it needed to be sanded so my preference is still their oil based filler even though it needs a lot longer to dry.

Cheers,
Bob

Timbermate, Timbermate, Timbermate. Judt do it.

Available from Stew Mac.

Hey, so a friend of mine (who is also my first commission) put up a video today of the epoxy application. For those interested it might be a helpful portrayal of just how easy an epoxy fill is. I will apply two more coats, after allowing 24 hrs to dry between coats and sanding with 220 but being careful to not sand through to bare wood.
[youtube]http://youtu.be/fLD7EI23zAg[/youtube]

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Doug

Don't let fear or common sense stop you from trying to build something

Deleted

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Thanks for the video, I guess I'll give epoxy a shot. I usually finish the instrument with the neck on so I wonder how can I do the sides without puddles of epoxy sitting at the joint?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

If that is the case you should pore fill, then attach the neck to finish.

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Doug

Don't let fear or common sense stop you from trying to build something

Too late... I have one instrument that is unfinished but the neck is already attached. Also for mahogany necks how do you pore fill necks? I can see using a piece of plastic to spread epoxy on the back and side, but what about the neck?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai,
I think someone with experience using epoxy would be better to answer your question. But my concern about doing it with the neck on would be epoxying the neck to the body. I am not sure how you would keep it out of the seam where the two meet. I am sure the guys that do it have a trick but I don't know what it is.


@Colin,
I can understand why you deleted your post (the way some people have become so sensitive about how posts are made), but I thought you gave Tai some good ideas on search queries for what he was looking for. I just recently upset one person by using sarcastic humor about searching. It was all in jest, but some people didn't see it that way (and it wasn't even the OP)... I ended up having to explain myself and all was good in the end but it seems to me that something has really changed on this forum that no one can even joke around anymore, let alone disagree with something someone has to say (God forbid you do that... ((Ask me how I know that...)).

So I didn't take your post and anything other than what it was, suggestions for things to search for.

Cheers,
Bob

I think what I'd do is maybe pre-seal the area with CA. Even though CA can glue things it has very little shear strength so normal removal procedure would still remove them, plus it wouldn't really get past the outer edge so the glue area is very small. I would also want to stop about 1/2" short of the joint because I hate sanding that area!!! the grain can then be filled some other means...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

It's personal preference. I prefer to not pore fill my necks. The porous nature of Mahogany provides less surface contact between the hand and the neck, resulting in a 'faster' neck. If you have ever played a really glossy neck one's hand tends to stick in position rather than smoothly glide from position to position. In fact I prefer to use TruOil for my necks for this very reason and spray nitro lacquer for the body. Again, personal preference. Many, many ways to approach all of this.

FWIW - Todd Stock has a much better video tutorial on epoxy filling. Here is part one: http://youtu.be/YYHxMg7n9cI

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Doug

Don't let fear or common sense stop you from trying to build something

Tai Fu: don't think I'd bring CA anywhere near this area, and in any event I don't see that medium CA will be any easier to deal with than epoxy.

If you finish your instruments with the neck on, you already know that the inside corners where the heel meets the side is the most difficult (and time-consuming) part of the finish process. We're looking for a nice "crisp" corner with no bubbles, scratches, lumps, etc.

All of my guitars, SS and classical, are Spanish heel construction, so obviously I finish with necks attached. My standard pore filling is with West Systems epoxy for back, sides, headplate, backstrap, and LMI's microbead paste filler for the neck and headstock. I've used epoxy on the neck, but I found it a right pain to apply and sand between coats -- paste fillers are MUCH easier. I've also had issues with compatibility between Tru-oil and epoxy pore fill, on those guitars where I use Tru-oil on the neck shaft.

I do the epoxy FIRST, using masking tape and considerable care to avoid getting epoxy on the neck, and making sure the layer of epoxy on the side near the neck is as thin as possible. Afterwards, masking tape is used to isolate the side as I fill the neck. If you're using epoxy on both, you simply need some plastic scrapers to smooth out that area carefully before the epoxy sets. You don't want any more sanding or scraping in that area after the epoxy has set up than absolutely necessary -- you know why.

I've seen Todd's videos on pore fill, but I don't think you'll find it in this clip.
In fact I couldn't find one of his for a neck anywhere.
If you know of one, please let me know!

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I know many of you use Zpoxy but I have this epoxy that looks and smells like System 3. It's 3:1, primarily designed for fiberglass. The problem is they take a VERY long time to set up. I can mix it up and in about 6 hours it would begin to thicken, 12 hours for it to turn sorta hard, and it would not completely harden for 24 hours or more! It is also very thin, so thin that it will actually soak deeply into wood pores and basically run out of wood grains leaving empty grains... I'm not sure if it's ideal for the job...

Should I just get Z Poxy or just deal with this System 3 stuff?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I've tried Timbermate on one and it worked very well. Easy to work, easy to sand.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

If it is fibreglass resin, you need to a separate hardener for it to harden properly.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker