Official Luthiers Forum!

Dave, you are gonna make us one to beta test, right?

Me threeve

It's not the plough plane that gives the accuracy. The plane simply forms the initial groove. It's modified because it's hard to get a plough that will cut a channel at 2.5 mm's. I use it on new bridges (off the Guitar).
The bottom of the channel is finished off with a simple scratch stock. Once the blade is firmly fixed, it can neither move up or down. In fact there is probably more play in the bearings of a good quality router. The accuracy is only limited by what it rides on - which can be the bridge itself, a couple of rails or any other simple jig/guide you care to come up with.

Well make a video, lets see you do it

I'd settle for a few pics... I'd also like to see a close-up of a slot produced as you describe, a closed end slot...

Michael you have made the claim that (above) there is nothing that the saddle mill does that can't be done with a few hand tools.

A plough plane is capable of making a saddle slot but you have not addressed the following:

Closed end saddle slots - most of the saddle slots in the world today are closed end, how do you quickly and easily, like our saddle mill, make a closed end saddle slot?

You said that the plough plane can register on the top of the bridge. Most of the bridges in the world today are not flat on the top which, if you registered the plough plane on the top of a bridge that is not flat will produce a saddle slot that is also not flat or level at the bottom - how do you address this?

You said that one can use what they like for rails to register the plane on. What's you configuration that distributes the pressures in a non-damaging way to the guitar top and how do you ensure that your rails are not flexing, level, etc?

The plough plane will produce a slot that is the width of the blade or greater, I suspect... How do you produce a saddle slot that is narrower than your plough plane blade? Mandos, vintage guitars, tenor guitars, and UKEs etc. have saddles slots that are narrower then your plough plane blade.

You mentioned that the channel is finished off with simple scratch stock. Our mill does not require "scratch stock" or any kind of shim in the bottom of the saddle slot. We don't even have to clean up the bottoms of our slots, they are perfect off the mill. No additional material has to be fitted or milled and we have a perfectly level saddle slot. To some this is important in so much as how well a saddle fits the slot and in the world of USTs it's critical. What's the method for leveling the bottom of a slot that you produce with the plough plane?

You mentioned that you slot your bridges off the instrument. We can slot on or off the instrument. In the repair world, which is very much a huge part of the application audience for the saddle slot mill slotting is done on the instrument. You mentioned rails. Our mill has adjustable compensation, end stops, etc. What is your method, presumably with rails.... for addressing compensation ON the instrument?

Not busting your chops here, well perhaps a little, but your claims don't stand up and you have not provided any visuals either regardless of the requests.

OK Hesh. You keep guessing, I'll keep knowing.

I use a a very simple jig for cutting saddle slots with the bridge mounted on the guitar (which is where I prefer to cut them) I will post some pictures when I get the chance.

I'm not in the business of "guessing" especially when charged with the valuable property of others...

If you want to forget about my questions to you for you to support your claims others have also asked for more information, pics, etc. Do you want them to keep guessing while you keep knowing too?

I'm not going to answer your silly questions Hesh. Nor am I going out of my way to prove it. You don't believe I can do it, my claims don't stand up and you all but called me a liar. I'd rather it didn't end up the way of Todd and the other folk.
I can do it with hand tools and I was doing it 25 years ago. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

I hope I didn't sound as though I was being facetious when I asked to see the tools as you use them for this - I'm honestly very interested. I do a lot of jobs with traditional hand tools and methods where I can can comfortably not only match, but exceed the precision of more complicated modern systems, and am quite familiar with people not believing me because they don't understand the tools and methods and how they govern precision.

I'm interested in seeing the tools not because I don't believe you, but because I'm having a difficult time picturing how they are used for this job. I can see the process for through saddles easily enough, but closed saddles would be more a challenge. Do the techniques you use apply to these as well?

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

We used to cut through the slot and plug with the same wood. If carefully done it was practically invisible. Not that different from cutting a new slot in a different position and putting in a fillet. We developed various methods for this, including laminating two razor saws together, with various sized spacers between. The scratch stock gave a very accurate, flat bottom to the channel. It wasn't used to form the slot, although it could be used to increase it's depth. Domed bridges weren't a problem because you don't have to register from the top of the bridge. You can register from a jig/rails placed at the side of the bridge. We even cut down files to fettle slots. Moving, extending or increasing the depth of a saddle slot wasn't a problem. It could all be done in a very accurate manner. Any inaccuracy was due to the user, not the tools.

You know quite honestly it seems to me that your process is not really accvurate, it's inaccurate to the point that in order to achieve tight tolerances you have to cut and plug and cut some more, fine tune this and that, fill the bottom of the slot to get it flat, scrape it after that.....

Doesn't sound like an accurate repeatable process, it sounds like trial and error.

How is that better?

I like hand tools and hand processes too, but that doesn't really sound like a fun process, nor accurate.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Hold on. Why are you misquoting me? Where did I state anything about filling the bottom of the saddle to get if flat? I'll be very grateful if you can give me the exact quote where I stated that the bottom of the slot needs to be filled and fine tuned.
I strongly suspect we could be waiting for a very long time Guitarwhisperer.

There's no need to fine tune. The scratch stock does that. It's actually no different to setting the router to cut a fraction deeper.
I simply stated that we developed tools that worked on saddles/saddle slots, including cutting up a file. I never stated that the file had to be used on every process. It was just another tool. It's quite obvious to me that you aren't aware of how accurate a scratch stock can be. It can remove whisper thin shavings. Probably much finer than those Japanese planing contests. It has a definite depth stop. As soon as the depth stop is reached, that's it. It cannot possibly take any more material off.
If you need to move the slot Guitarwhisperer, what do you do with the increased gap that you have? Put in a much wider saddle or. . . plug it? According to your logic, if you have to plug it, it makes it inaccurate!
It's as accurate as I needed to make it. Just because you don't think that you could achieve fine tolerances don't believe for one moment that other people can't. It's nonsense. I've worked with some pretty impressive Violin repairers who never went anywhere near a power tool. The kind of work they did, including soundboard patches and Scroll grafts was astonishingly accurate. No doubt that you would think their methods were trial and error as well.
I really do think I'll call it a day.

I can achieve fine tolerances with hand tools. It's one of the reasons I haven't really worried about CNC machinery.

I misunderstood some of the terms you're using, and you're not really distinguishing between repairs and new saddles very well.

Still, it definitely doesn't sound as quick as what the tool can do, which is what the purpose of it is, to speed up the workflow without losing accuracy.

As accurate as you might be able to be, this tool is as accurate or better, and much faster.

I don't even see why you're bothering to argue.

It's a great tool!

Get over it.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Yet another stupid accusation and misrepresentation of my position.
I'm done with the forum.

Misunderstanding, maybe?

Misrepresentation, no.

You're not being very clear.

What's your point?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Michael N, I am still unsure as to whether your previous posts refer to working on a bridge which is already installed on a guitar, or whether you are talking about slotting a bridge prior to gluing it to the top.

In either event, I am at a loss to understand why you would use a plough plane to complete an operation which will be done 100 times faster, with less effort, by a simple small router. It may well be of course that you are independently wealthy, and are not concerned about maximising your time/profit ratio ...but most people who are doing this as a business are actually concerned about achieving the desired result in the shortest time, and when it comes to plough planes v routers , then the router wins hands down every time. I do assume that you are not claiming that the plough plane somehow yields a superior result ???

Nonetheless it would still be fascinating to see pics of your plough plane set-up in action ...

As promised here are some pictures of the simple jig I use to cut (or recut) saddle slots with the bridge mounted on the guitar.
The jig is clamped to the guitar with the padded clamps placed over the ribs to allow clamping with light to moderate pressure. The small piece of 1/4 inch mcp is used to align the jig with the saddle slot previously marked on the bridge. It is sized to give the offset of the router bit from the edge of the (square) sub base.
The depth of cut is adjusted using the routers mechanism. For closed end saddles the router is manually rotated into the bridge, guided by the edges of the jig - not difficult to do with a little practice. In the last picture you can see pencil marks on the jig. I do a dry run with the router to figure out where to begin and end the slot and then mark this on the jig. When there are too many marks I erase them with sandpaper. The jig can be shimmed to give canted slots if prefered, which I have done on occasion.
It certainly is crude compared to David's machine, but with a modicum of care and manual dexterity can give good results.

I like it!

Very similar to what I use to slot bridges OFF the guitar, adapted for on-guitar use!


I might make one, for use until I can buy the laser guided one.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Clay, yours is similar to the one I use. Here is a link that I have previously posted, to show how mine is set up.

http://www.firestripepickguards.com/?page_id=915

It is a very simple jig and is in no way intended to be compared with David's laser mounted saddle slot mill in the original post. I totally yield to that fine work of art. Mine was quickly thrown together when I first got my laminate trimmer. It surprises me at how accurately it works, and how simple it is to set up and align with the "faux-laser stick" that I use.

Hi James,
Yours looks like an improved version. I posted mine several years back on the MIMF and had thought about making some changes, but as well as it works, I have been using it as is. I like the clamping system you are using. It looks like it would distribute the pressure better.
The Dewalt trimmer looks like a re-branded PC7310. One thing for people to note - any trimmer can be used with these jigs by substituting a square sub base for the typically round one.
I'm sure we could both think of a few more improvements for this type of rig, but at some point we would wind up with what David has posted, and probably for a similar cost. Volkswagen vs Ferrarri!

Vs Audi...
Since all this has been blown wide open, let's not forget the middle ground, the Stew Mac jig. Perfectly accurate and acceptable results in 10 minutes for $160 plus Proxxon motor...

Peeps, Dave is not trying to hawk this tool to any one, I'm am sure he is just looking for a little peer review/comments on what is unquestionably a bad *ss jig. I, like mike n. have cut slots by hand as well as regularly use the jig Haans is showing. This is not about what way is better.
I think Dave's jig is a remarkable example of OCD problem solving, and I personally know him and I am not surprised at all at the extent that he pushed this particular tool.
Is it too expensive? Of course!
Is it totally Awsome? Heck yeah!
If one arrived in the mail tomorrow would you use it? I bet you would!
Let's not degenerate this forum into "my way is the only way and you suck"
We are just getting back to civility around here.
Till next time....
P.s. Dave, I am checking the mail daily...
P.p.s. I prefer a Cnc

I was hesitant to make my last post, as this is/was a "Show and Tell" thread. As I said, it is a splendid piece of work. However, I think what this has evolved into is a discussion of of the particular process. Most folks here probably would not turn one down if it was dropped on their doorstep. Shelling out $1-2K for a single use tool, on the other hand is not practical for most of the aspiring builders here or even many of the talented builders. I think others and I were only pointing out that there are other ways to accomplish the step, many of them as accurate as one makes them.
This is not to take away from Dave's tool, and as you describe it is awesome, bad whatever, OCD (obsessive/compulsive?), insert adjective here...
Don't think it was anyone's intention to say "my way is the only way and you suck". I have said this before, this forum has a lot of relative beginners in building instruments, and encompasses all manners of folks affordability and wealth. To show jigs and tools like this without regard for other ways of accomplishing the same task may only deflate prospective new builders, who are trying to accomplish these many varied tasks of building with limited funds and tools.
With all that in mind I will say it one more time...this is a very good tool...

That's right Hans the laser guided, vacuum clamped, PC-310 powered saddle mill is overkill for many and most but it's still interesting and there is a lot to be learned from one end of the spectrum.

It's not for the first time kit builder or even the small production builder if said builder is using commercially available pre-slotted bridges or custom CNC pre-slotted bridges. That is unless, of course one does not make any mistakes and locate the saddle slot in the wrong place ala Martin in the early 70's.

Who it is for is busy shops who have to:

- Replace bridges with shop-made duplicates
- Correct an existing guitar with a poorly located saddle slot
- Builders who prefer to slot the bridge on the guitar
- Repair folks who encounter an instrument with a poorly made saddle slot that is either not level at the bottom or slot width varies all over the place making fitting a saddle perfectly difficult to impossible
- Builders or repair folks who install USTs and want the UST to work flawlessly, it starts with a uniform, level slot
- Repair folks or builders who have to remove a glued in, through saddle and milling out the original is necessary
- Repair folks who work on electrics and have to swap pups for clients. Clients often bring us new pups billed as "direct replacement" pups which is a big-arse lie because often the direct replacement pups are anything but. Although not engineered for this our mill has been used to route cavities in electric bodies for pup installation, easy peezy and again not what this mill was intend for. Our alternative is to go across town to David's other shop and use the big-arse mill. Using the saddle mill makes it easy, it's already here and does a great job. It also will not damage a finished instrument and vs. using a full sized mill no creative holders or jigs are required for the guitar body.
- Not only correcting an existing slot on an existing guitar but deepening it too, often slots are not deep enough for the intended purpose and this mill can correct this too.

It's a professional tool that will benefit those the very most who do lots of volume of repairs and/or production building (if one chooses to slot on the guitar).

I'll add that it's also something that seems to be appreciated the most by luthiers who work in the trade AND either have latent machinist tendencies or have a background as a machinist. The accuracy that results from the mill including the predictability is attractive to machinists understandably.

The set-up that Hans showed in his pic I had for many years and just gave it to my friend down south who is getting started doing repairs. I never used it when I have access to the laser guided mill but the jig worked well so I passed it on. They have a little slop in them granted and the tools they are made for Dremel type tools are well known for excessive runout but it will work and does work. I used mine with no issues.

This has been interesting to me to observe where the interest seems to be. Pro shops and folks who make their living in the trade want one and tend to want one a lot. These folks know that tools such as this one pay for themselves and then some over time not simply from the work that can be done but from the scope-creep and debacles that can be avoided as well. With this said I view this mill as not only a "solution" but also as a hedge against unwanted liability as well.

Good tools are important! Thanks everyone for your very valued comments!