Official Luthiers Forum!

And there was me, thinking he was being serious!
They have a right funny sense of humour, some of these wild Scots laddies!

No, my $0.20 measuring stick for each scale length does me fine as well, Bit trickier with my usual pre-compensated nut, and I have to take it from the 12th fret position.
But having a bit of the "toolie" in me I can appreciate the advantages of such an excellent bit of kit in a busy high end repair shop.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Yeah, I'm not sure I could see justifying this tool as a builder. Even just installing under saddle transducers in existing guitars though (where encountering slots not quite deep, or clean, or flat enough is a regular occurrence), and for me it didn't take long to wonder how I ever got along without it.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I've tried and failed to make something similar. Well, failed to make something that worked well at least. If you're going to ramp up, I'd certainly be tempted.

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Mike Lindstrom

Well I was going through the parts to replicate this jig exactly, and the bearings and rails alone (no motor, lead screw, anything else) come in at around $900-$1000. Of course there are other options at lower cost, but most come with challenges to maintain stability, or require increased bulk and mass, etc.

So we're working with a machinist to come up with different approaches for equal stability and precision at a lower cost without making any compromises in function. We have a few plans, and I still think we can find a way to make it happen.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

So a grand for the parts and materials.

You actually have a few options from there.

Print up a parts list and assembly instructions, and sell those, after securing your design, the cheapest. Whoever buys the instructions can source the parts themselves, and make substitutions if they wish. Put it in book form, and sell them for $300 each.

Gather the parts and sell them as packaged kits for the luthier to assemble. If the parts cost $1000, sell the kits for $1250.

Make and sell completed units. Again if the parts cost $1000 then sell the completed units for $1500. Not as many people would buy them, but you'll sell a few. I'd probably still want one, it'd just be a little harder to get the cash together, but still doable.


Obviously you're not buying raw materials and machining them into shape, nor are you buying 10,000 unit's worth of materials at a time, so the cost would be higher than say Home Depot would charge.

But then again neither is there any compromise in quality.

I'll bet you could get a company like LMII interested in working with you....

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I've been planning a new circle cutting jig and have been planning to build it around the Dewalt 611 plunge base. Seems like that could work here too. Not as nice as the zero backlash screw but all the other stops and things are already built in. Precise bits even sells the ultra precise collets for that little trimmer. Doesn't solve the expensive rails problem though...

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Do you drill the bridge pin holes after it's glued on as well?

I've had my fair share of measure once cut once stupidity and I imagine that this tool doesn't actually solve that problem either but it's one heck of a slick tool for sure. Especially for the repairs.

Thanks David for the video. Got me to thinking if I can build something like that around my MicroFence w/ PC 310, maybe in Lexan. I can handle the vacuum part of it.
Have to figure out the linear bearings, there's so many out there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

Yes on new builds (with sacrificial caul to prevent blow-out) and yes on bridge reglues even though the holes are already there they get caked up with HHG.

And yes again in that even this saddle slot mill benefits from measuring more than once.... Wish I could remember to actually measure twice all of the time though....

David is currently working on the next model that will use side-scanning-sonar and GPS to determine nut face location, the 12 fret location, calculate fret error on the board, and then little servo motors that adjust the jig automatically so manually locating is not necessary....

Just kidding on the next model talk.... He is brilliant though and not a day goes by that I am not in awe of David's Lutherie chops!

For a VERY busy repair shop, I can see it. For makers and/or the occasional repair, I can't. If you are spending $1,000 on a tool that executes one task, it's a lot of money to get back. If it becomes a multi purpose tool then the game changes. It changes if you just like buying fancy jigs and aren't too concerned with the tool paying it's own way. As primarily a maker it won't do anything for my bridge location. I just use a few sticks that cost nada.

Sure, that's right it's not for everyone including kit builders and small builders who may have bridges pre-produced and are only involved, Lutherie wise, in building a repetitive line of certain models that they have jigged-up to build. I certainly went a long time without a saddle mill.

But if you are a VERY busy shop, and we are just that shop, and have to deal with tens of thousands of say Martins from the early 70's with saddles slots located up to .100" off due to compromised jigs at that time in the f*ctory this mill is priceless.

If you do repair work and have to replace a bridge and I mean "make" an accurate reproduction of say a "banner" model Gibby bridge, install it in the exact foot print of the original and correct the speaking length of the strings because the instrument also had the neck reset - this mill is for you too.

If you build with through saddles or do repair work on vintage and newer instruments with through saddles and the saddles need to be milled out and replaced, this jig is for you.

Again if you do repair work and have to fill a saddle slot and then relocate it, this jig is for you.

If you are a small builder and manage to get your saddle location wrong in the 11th hour on a deadline or even with lots of time you now have the option to also fill and relocate instead of pulling the bridge and replacing.

It's a professional tool and never was intended to be for the hobbyist, kit builder, small builder who only produces a limited number of instruments of a limited number of models annually.

We just thought that some of you who are pros AND do lots of repair work might enjoy seeing this one.

Yesterday we attempted to get a feel for what this might cost to produce if we "productized" it. Turns out the current iteration has nearly $1,000 of slides and bearings alone.... So maybe this is a $3,000 jig with a total lifetime market of perhaps 10 units. Maybe we can get the cost out of it to a greater degree but regardless we never expected that this jig would be both attractive AND capable of paying for itself making the acquisition justifiable by more than pros and pro shops who do repair and restoration work.

For us though it's great to have the ability to mill a clean slot and then drop in a pre-made, original Martin saddle and have it fit like a glove.

Frank Ford also has a very cool saddle mill and you might want to check his sight for more information if interested. And this is the kind of shops that these are intended for busy, pro shops that have to do the heavy lifting in the trade repairing all manner of things old and new with all manner of inadequacies.

So you are correct Michael these have a limited market. When I was only building I still could have benefitted from one of these mills if the bump in precision was worth enough to me to justify the time in making one of these or, if available, purchasing one of these mills. But not having one never stopped me from building either.

Hesh. There's nothing that tool does that cannot be done with a few hand tools. It might do it quicker, it may make things a little easier but everything can be done with a very few basic hand tools. To a high professional standard as well. I don't think I'll be able to justify something like this, ever.

I wonder if you could 3D print one of those. Or would plastic flex too much? IDK if 3D printing would keep costs down either, just an idea.

For 3 grand I'm definitely out. It's not THAT useful, and thousands of busy repair shops around the world get along just fine without it.
I can do every task you mentioned without it.

I frankly don't see how the parts are costing that much, even with expensive rails, as short as those are.

$500 max parts cost.

If you guys don't want to make them, just say so LOL!

Maybe you can just post the parts list and let us figure it out.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Yeah, if it were going to cost $3k we wouldn't bother trying to make or sell them. These exact bearings and rails on my model run about $930 new today, but they are certainly overkill, and I've already begun sourcing parts equally suitable but at a much lower cost. I think there's a good chance we may be able to do a batch for the $1k range, but there are still some details to be hammered out. Progress though...



I disagree completely. If hand tools could do what a tool like this does, I wouldn't have bothered making it.

Installing a UST in a guitar only to find out after you start that the slot is warped or inconsistent. Pull out the mill, a few minutes later it's perfect and you move along. Want a UST installed in a through saddle bridge - no problem. Cut a secondary slot set .002" less the height of the of the transducer, perfectly consistent and parallel with the outer ends of the slot - in 5 minutes. Need to plug and relocate a saddle slot that is warped or misplaced - clean up the old one with the mill and now it's easy as pie to fit a clean consistent plug, then route a new one, in far less time than it would take to do to the same level of accuracy with simple hand tools.

Yes, with simple hand tools there are some people who may be able to cut a perfectly clean slot with a dead flat base and perfectly parallel walls of consistent width - not many mind you, and it would take a heck of a long time to do so with the same precision, and consistent control and predictability this can achieve in minutes, but it's possible. I could also mow my lawn with scissors or dig an olympic swimming pool with a spoon. What tools like this can do that simpler ones can't is ensure consistent precision and reliability with such ease of use and economical use of time - in other words, it makes the clients happy because the work is always perfect, and makes the luthier money because he can do better work in less time.

I easily have a few k$ invested after discarded prototypes, time, and parts, and even then it payed for itself in my shop within a year or so. Since then it's all gravy, and makes the jobs rather pleasing to do as well.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I must be one of the chosen few then.
I'm not knocking the jig. Not in any way. But one would certainly need to be getting a fair amount of that type of work to justify the expense.

I'm glad to see that you edited your post, Michael, and took out what you previously wrote asking me to not overstate my claims....

Nothing has been overstated and that comment was not necessary or truthful. Thanks for removing it....

Regarding your assertion about hand work I too beg to differ but what occurred to me is that we are both making claims in respect to "professional standards." It might be important to define just exactly what these professional standards are so that even though we are two peoples perhaps at times separated by a common language... others might better understand us both.

Regarding the mill vs. hand work remember too that this mill works on the instrument and does not damage or risk damaging the instrument in any way.

If you can mill a closed end saddles slot to a tolerance of .0005" consistently with only hand tools AND survive the "opportunity costs" associated with taking what is for us a 5 minute job.... my hats off to ya. Personally I don't believe your claim.

In addition saddle location would also be to the same tolerance stated above as would be compensation, depth, having the slot perfectly level as David mentioned all the while never once slipping with a chisel, scratching or damaging any other part of the instrument it would surprise the heck out of me.

I also agree that it can be done but David has already addressed other examples of things that can be done but might be best done, depending on the ultimate goal and the level of professional standards, with a dedicated tool.

Generally speaking the video and post here was never intended to "sell" an offering. None of these have been produced, there are no drawings, bill of materials, alpha, beta units, etc.

For those of us in the trade it's of great interest because it addresses our real life issues repairing instruments. The mill offers a level of precision AND speed that cannot be duplicated by hand work - period! It's also a money maker and has been for us for some years now, again something that might only appeal to folks in the trade.

Most of all it's an accomplishment and a rather great accomplishment to those of us who do this stuff daily. This is why the video was posted and this is why mills such as this one or any interesting jig for that matter are often posted on forums.

Lastly, for now, there are levels of this trade that you will not see represented on Internet forums very often. Folks who are Master Luthiers who even get together on occasion to share ideas, jigs, techniques, etc. This jig stole the show at one of these events last summer and it's value was immediately recognizable to again folks in the trade making our livings repairing, building, or both.

If you feel that this is not for you, no problem, it was never intended to be for everyone but instead for a very small audience of folks who a) understand the problems associated with saddle slotting enough to be capable of recognizing a potential solution, and b) folks who like David may very nearly go to the end of the earth at times in pursuit of advancing the craft in both a meaningful manner as well as addressing real life repair issues that to date have not had many if any viable solutions.

Lastly as to your point, Michael, about hand work. It's also true that with a gramil and chisel one can carve out binding channels. Alternately folks may use a laminate trimmer and a dedicated jig. Although the comparison in this case lacks the challenge of milling perfectly square and radiused saddle slot closed ends just how many folks are doing binding channels by hand......

I get enough work to justify a $1500 investment in a single tool like that.

It would definitely pay for itself quickly.

If I had the time I would have no problem even spending a couple thou over a few years to develop it.

As it is, I barely have time to build and repair, much less develop tools.

Which is why I wouldn't mind buying one ready made, and spending some bucks.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

That kind of accuracy is perfectly possible with hand tools. I don't think I would have a problem milling a slot to near that accuracy. . . but you obviously aren't going to believe me. I can get an accuracy of .05 of a mm, which is the thickness of my thinnest feeler gauge. Actually it's a touch thinner, I thinned it with Wet/Dry. Hard to see why you would need accuracy greater than that on a Guitar.
We'll leave it at that.
BTW. I do bindings and purfling using hand tools.

Michael:
It is not a matter of how accurate one can cut a slot by hand. I'm very confident one can do it accurately in a much shorter time with greater consistency using this mill.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Hesh, David , please do forgive my earlier comment, which was intended as flippant, rather than "negative and sarcastic".

I would also like to commend you both on the manner in which you have countered the somewhat nebulous objections to this jig. It is obvious surely to a blind man that this tool will pay for itself a hundred time over in a busy repair shop ... as you have patiently explained, it probably isn't for the one man, non-VAT registered operation working out of his garret.

I think that David's design is brilliant ...but I do have one very slight qualm... If I were building this for my own use, (and one day perhaps I may ) ... I would not register the jig off the top of the guitar ...instead I would construct a cradle which would hold the guitar (this would have a base of 3/4" plywood) and off that same base, the jig would be mounted, on a four post construction, independently of the guitar top.

Threaded adjusters underneath the body could be used to adjust the height and lateral angle of the guitar body, and dial indicators above, to bring the saddle slot into the correct plane, and thereafter it would proceed just as you do now.

That said, i am probably totally overthinking the issue...I am sure that the jig works just brilliantly as it is, and kudos to David for a brilliant concept.

Exactly! The point is doing the same job or better faster.

I don't see how it could be argued that a busy shop wouldn't benefit financially from having one of these things around.

I don't see how it could be argued that a builderr who has the money and just wants to buy it and use it once a year for a task he can do perfectly fine without it but simply wants to make the task easier or more fun would be wasting his money. Aside from what it does, it just LOOKS like it would be fun to use!

So yeah, I would have to say this disagreement is a non-issue.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

See my earlier post. That's what I stated. It would have to be a busy shop getting that type of work on a fairly regular basis.
I misunderstood the accuracy quoted. I took it as meaning setting the total depth. I think Hesh is referring to the depth variation in the saddle slot along it's length. If that's the case I could probably match that accuracy and just as consistently. It would take longer. It's the method I use to set the depth at the moment, after using a modified plough plane. It's certainly not inconsistent. There's absolutely no logical reason why it should be.

That sounds like a very cool tool, the modified plough plane. Do you use a guide or "shooting board" of sorts to set the initial slot? I love traditional hand tool methods as much as modern technologies, and would love to see some photos of that setup.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I also would absolutely love to see photos of that set-up ...