Official Luthiers Forum!

been considering PolyWhey myself it will probably go onto a size #2 that getting ready. we finished our floor with it and it's:
-really thin
-really hard, maybe even too hard in terms of environmental changes.
-tintable
-near zero VOC
-doesn't like water

another choice could be ARM SafeCoat. actual zero voc, but i haven't used it for anything yet. people complain of guitars separating along the seams because of waterbased finish but i need to see that one for myself first.

That sounds like it's Citrus Turpentine, which some artists use instead of Spirits of Turpentine or Turpentine substitute.
I have a small jar of Copal Oil varnish that has Citrus Turps as the solvent. Wonderful smell!

sure they do...they go out of tune at the worst of times, swell up and shrink back down, etc...lol.

but...in the long run...a guitar costs less!

though they are just about as likely to drive you to drink

and yeah, I am presently in the middle of a misogynistic episode

Padma, I have found Hang Gliding to be the perfect senior-age passion.

Hey guys,
I’m a bit overwhelmed by all the replies including well wishes and advice. This is a tough life decision for me as I’m now retired with time on my hands. The majority of the archtops were built while I was still working the full time day job. The irony is that the hours were tough at times but I felt it was worth it as it would give me something to do in retirement. My wife of 47 years, who has been very supportive of my hobby, thinks it would be a good idea if I had something to do also. Imagine that. 
I thought it interesting that several of you wondered if I had lost the passion to build. I must have left that impression unintentionally. But, yes, the excitement after building several dozen does subside a bit compared to the totally giddy enthusiasm felt at the very start back in the previous century.
There seems to be a consensus that outsourcing the finishing should be considered. I’ve often considered this but my concern has been the shipping costs as well as the packaging and chance for damage. I do however understand the upside of outsourcing. I had a good experience with Barry Daniels doing most of the neck building for me on the first couple dozen or so archtops. That involved shipping the semi-finished blanks to Houston and back but we had no problems and the workmanship was impeccable.
I read above of Aaron’s Uralkyd 500 botanical finish with great interest. That sounds almost too good to be true but hearing it from an OLF member certainly lends credence. The orange smell would be a positive for sure. How many minutes does it take for the Uralkyd to flash dry between coats? The price seems awful high but maybe I could trade a few gallons of McFadden’s for it. 
Thanks again and look forward to even more input. I even appreciate all the good natured humor.
Nelson

sure they do...they go out of tune at the worst of times, swell up and shrink back down, etc...lol.

but...in the long run...a guitar costs less!

though they are just about as likely to drive you to drink

and yeah, I am presently in the middle of a misogynistic episode[/quote]

My wife is an acoustic model, and I am still experiencing a far amount of feedback. Go figure.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Well thats nice that she be communicating with you

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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"I read above of Aaron’s Uralkyd 500 botanical finish with great interest. That sounds almost too good to be true but hearing it from an OLF member certainly lends credence. The orange smell would be a positive for sure. How many minutes does it take for the Uralkyd to flash dry between coats? The price seems awful high but maybe I could trade a few gallons of McFadden’s for it. 
Thanks again and look forward to even more input. I even appreciate all the good natured humor."
Nelson

Nelson, the U500 is seriously an excellent finish. The only drawback is the dry time between coats, it takes around 10-12 hours between coats, so you have to take care to avoid dust getting into it while it dries.. The upside to that, though, is that each coat of the U500 is about equal to 3-4 coats of lacquer. This is because the majority of a lacquer coat is the thinner, which fumes off leaving a very small amount of resin film behind. The U500 is a varnish with a high solids content, which builds a nice finish quicker with less coats. I usually spray or brush 5-6 coats maximum and it is ready to level and buff out.
It is expensive for the quantity of finish, a quart is over $50, but a quart should finish 3-4 guitars.

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

I have seen tradesperson in Taiwan do their work for decades, without dust collection or respirator when spraying lacquer. They sometimes do indoor spray painting and the fume is so heavy you really do not want to be inside at all. I have no idea how they keep doing it for so long without any health effects, but perhaps it's because they don't stay in the room after the paint dries.

As for lacquer offgassing, is it possible to let the majority of it outgas outside or in a shed, and then bring it inside but leave it somewhere relatively well ventilated to out gas the rest of the way? I agree basements is a bad idea because gas tends to accumulate there...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Is the off-gassing from water-based lacquers as bad? I normally do my stuff in the garage and want to make sure that I'm not subjecting my family to any harm. Assuming I spray my guitar outside (with necessary organic vapour PPE) and then hang them to dry in the garage (or even in the basement), am I putting my family at great risk? I was under the impression that while WB lacquers still have VOCs, the amount is reduced substantially because the primary carrier is water. I would assume that the amount of VOCs from off-gassing would also be reduced considerably (at least that's what I'm hoping).

You are seeing the brother, then the younger brother, then the son of the brother followed by the son of the younger brother.

I guess I should clarify.. I rarely use a pore filler on my guitars, I think epoxy can deaden a wood's vibration a bit, my opinion anyhow, so I usually use the U500 as its own filler. The first 3 coats are usually the filler/sealer coats, and I sand back almost to the wood, leaving enough behind to fill the pores.
After that, depending on the wood, it takes another 2-3 coats to get a nice enough build to wet sand the finish level.

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

I am not sure if waterbased lacquer is AS bad or not. I have always been very sensitive to chemicals, so when I stopped using nitro, I thought that waterbased would be the way to go, big mistake.. every time I used the stuff, even wearing a respirator, I would have migraine headaches for a couple of days after.. So that tells me, at least for my own self, that those finishes still have something in there bad enough to knock me for a loop.. it may not be the case for everyone, but I will not go near it anymore.

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

I use the targetcoatings EM6000 (I think this is probably the most commonly used WB lacquer) and have never had any issues with it in terms of sensitivity. Per the MSDS, this finish is pretty benign. It may cause some irritation if you get it in your eyes, etc.. but that is about it.

I spray in my garage and then leave for an hour or so until I spray the next coat. The overspray falls out as dust, which l expect could cause irritation like most particulates would...?

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Hi Aaron,

Can you share your schedule for this product (I saw in a later post that you use for pore filling, etc, but maybe a more detailed schedule). I do not spray, so currently I have French Polished my first 2 guitars, and the 2 I am finishing now FP the tops, and TruOil the Backs and sides. I would be interested in an alternative. Can this finish be "wiped on" ala tru oil?

Thanks,

Glenn

I have seen this countless times over the years with painters on jobsites...they also walk around giggling like little girls and are dumb as dirt...

the above statements reflect brain damage...

one thing I did learn from such people is that drinking a few beers really mitigates the effects of lacquer fumes...not the actual damage but it does take away the headaches and stuff like that...seriously...in all reality when you are dealing with lacquers you WILL end up getting exposed to some fumes no matter how hard you try to be safe and trust me a couple of beers really makes it go a LOT easier, and let's face it, spraying lacquer is not exactly the hardest thing in the world once you figure it all out.

what blows me away is when I see some painter using a rag as a face mask...man that is just completely useless and pointless...wow is all I can say...luckily I rarely have to deal with such types any longer since the economy has pretty much gotten rid of the trash...the problem with such people is that if they don't give a flip about themselves they certainly don't give a flip about those around them (which means I get to pack up and if lucky go to another job, if unlucky go home and lose hours)

Don't forget that something may be bad for you even if you don't react to it. I don't particularly have a lot of trouble with nitro*, and even like the sweetish smell, but I know it's like diving head first into a chemical waste dump. My reactions are all to conifer resins. I painted oils for a hobby for a while and learned right off the bat (like, the first time, after spending two days in bed) that turpentine was not my friend. Western Redcedar gives me flash backs to that, but it only makes me feel like I have a cold while the top and body are going together. For some reason, spruce is totally benign.

*so why won't I use it? I have no place to use it that wouldn't be divorce provoking.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Hi Nelson,

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

As a fellow Archtop builder here's my 2 cents

I have always had a love-hate relationship with nitro.........

I love it because you can get a near "perfect" finish with it and it is relatively "forgiving" to apply (at least for me),also it buffs to such a high gloss. I have tried several varnishes and just find them too soft. I thought of switching to varnish, but have gone back to the nitro.

I hate it because it is so "toxic".

If I was you, I would outsource my nitro finishing to someone local, so you don't have to ship them if possible,the second choice would be to ship them.

Regards,
Brad

if the zing has been going away from building archtops perhaps try a different instrument? a harp, harp guitar, dreadnaught, mandolin, violin, oud, banjo, dobro, etc... maybe you can mix it up a bit?

You must have missed this post. About six posts down from the top of the second page. I think the encouragement to continue is a positive thing. Seems the Op is still looking for options to keep building.

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Kyle

Kiss of life. Sometimes it works.

Hey, how about switching over to making gourd banjos? I know a fellow who does. Says it takes a lot of gourds to find just one or two that have the right shape. So guess what? He got another hobby to go along with it...growing gourds!

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I would like to speak to you in person Nelson. Pm me if you are interested.


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Ken

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Ken