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OK, so after all this time, I was getting so close to FINALLY being ready to start finishing number 1. All I had left to do was install the frets on my dang near perfect-as-I-could-get-it neck, make a button for the heel, and then I could start the final sanding process. Boy was I wrong.

First question is, how many things can go wrong with a build? But that's not important right now. What is important is what do I do now?

All frets went in pretty good, until I got to number 14. For some reason, it would not seat in the slot. Too wide a slot maybe? Not deep enough? Possible, but checking with my gage it seemed fine. Hammer in the fret, the fret wire would lose its curve and get straight, and no way no how would it stay in at the edges.

OK, try the next one, see if they will all go in except that one, then address as necessary. So, same problem with No. 15. Wondered what was going on, then realized the horror: my fretboard has split. The break runs from the end at the sound hole all the way to the joint. I lost a chip of material by one fret marker dot, so I now have a hole to fill, if possible. Managed to get the marker dot out, so it will have to be redone. Then, to top it all off, I noticed the fret board is pulling away from the neck itself on that end.

So, I went from a darn near perfect neck that was at least very nice looking, to a split fret board that is pulling away from the neck, has a couple of divots in it, needs one marker dot replaced, and won't take a fret wire.

Hey guys, I'm open to suggestions here. From all the dulcimers I've built, I'm no stranger to fret wire, but have never run into this. And yes, I thought I had the end properly supported, so yes, the obvious answer here is there was something wrong with that support.

So, can this be salvaged and still made to look like new instead of a repair?

Thanks,

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Well that certainly is a problem... but not anything too serious.

The first thing I would try to figure out is what caused the crack in the first place. Was it a bad piece of wood and had a fault in that spot or did the fretboard lift causing the crack. If the fretboard lifted then was it caused by a bad glue joint and is that a problem with the rest of the glue holding the whole board on? What kind of glue was used and how it was clamped? Could it be humidity related or lack of?

Lots of questions to figure out before trying to fix it because it will do no good fixing it if there is an underlying problem.


Once those are figured out then you can address fixing the board itself. If the glue is solid on the rest of the neck then you can use a knife and push some more glue under the board but first I would glue the crack in the board before trying to glue it down. Filling the chip isn't much of an issue especially if you have any scraps left over from the board. Find a spot that matches the color of the chip as close as you can and fit a new chip back in. Use the sanding dust to fill any places where the crack needs it.

Bob

i'll speculate, as an amateur, that maybe the radius of the fret wire was greater than the radius of the fretboard- the tang barbs initially gripped the wood, but when you banged the fret home, the tang barbs increased their distance, pulling the fretboard apart along a weak grain line...
nice looking wood for sure

I don't understand why the fingerboard would come unglued from the neck while fretting, and I don't believe pushing more glue under the fingerboard would be the way to go. considering you may have a bad glue joint between the neck and fingerboard , I think I would remove the fingerboard, repair the split , complete the fret job on the fingerboard, then reglue the fingerboard to the neck

I'd like to hear more about how you were set-up to do the fretting. Was the neck on the guitar or off and if off how did you support the fret board extension while hammering frets?

Seems to me that this could be fixed and that the fix would not be too difficult and likely could be done in one session too. You've got two basic tasks, reglue the board to the neck and glue and clamp the split shut. Some dry clamping/dry runs should help greatly.

Also what kind of glue did you use for the board to the neck?

I'm asking about how the neck was supported during fretting because it's not finished yet so you weren't fretting a completed guitar and the board is on the neck so you weren't fretting the board off the neck. This means that you either had the neck in place on the guitar and since you are hammering a fret buck or lead block under the upper transverse brace area to absorb shock would be one way.

If you were fretting with the neck off the guitar I can see how and why the board split because this would be a very difficult structure to support properly off a guitar. Anyway let us know a bit more of the details so that we can help?

Yo, Phil...

Cracking fret boards eh... hammering in a 14th cantilevered at the 12th and 13th and well ...now you know how to crack a fret board and pop it off the neck.

If a fret won' t seat...first thing to do is find out why...not grab a hammer to beat the $hit out of it.

Ya by the time you gotts to the 15th with that hammer you had it cracked real gooder, you sure did.

Now the board lifted because of the leverage action by you trying to fix a fret by wailing away with a hammer over the fulcrum edge at the 12th and 13th. You know the old teeter totter action.
Glue it together...fill any cracks...reslot the fret curfs and this time support the friggen board.


And all thats assuming you used hide glue on that board to hold it to the neck. Cuz if you didn't well, you will know why you should have when you go to remove it. Cuz no glue will stick to itself ~ except hide.

You "thought" you had it supported, ya right.... now you know why me keep telling nubees to "stop that thinking"..check , check and then recheck but for gods sake, please stop thinking.

But most important of all don't go be listening to no nubee "speculators" don't be knowin shift from play dough. Different pros will tell you different ways but non of them will steer you wrong, although me might lead you down the garden path, but then me not a pro a loofer yes...pro no... difference being love and money.

To answer your last question...me don't know what your capable of...however it is possible to fix it like new.

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Thanks everyone for the tips, I'll now try to walk through the process. As Bob said, need to understand what went wrong, so I don't break it again.

To start, here is how the board was glued to the neck. The glue used was Titebond original, what I always use. I believe this joint is about as good a glue joint as I am capable of, honestly I don't know any way to improve it. So if anyone sees something, feel free to point it out.

I glued the board to the neck before any radius was applied to either, to hopefully insure a good joint. To clamp everything, I made two clamp cauls out of 3/4" plywood. The one to go on the back of the neck was just for support, and to keep the clamps from digging into the neck wood. The one for the top was modified slightly. Having read numerous times about glue moisture causing the edges of the fret board to curl up, I used a suggestion from this forum, and put a couple of strips of tape on the edge of the caul. Not too much, just a few thou extra thickness along the outer edges. That done, everything was clamped up tight and left for a while. At least overnight, might have been a couple of days, can't remember exactly. But I did notice nice squeeze out of glue, in one photo you can see it in the area where it failed during fretting.

This is the top caul with the taped edges.

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Fret install setup:

I first made a support from a piece of 2X4, with a curve sanded into one long edge and a piece of cork glued in place. This was for the shaft of the neck, between the joint and the headstock. Next, I made a support for the free end of the fret board. I made it from two pieces of 2X4, with grooves cut for clearance for the neck tenon and truss rod. I used a clamp to hold these pieces together. Then, I could support the neck on the long section, and have the clamped block under the free end. But, the clamped block wasn't tall enough, so I put a strip of 3/4" material underneath it to support it while installing the frets. Though it doesn't show it in this photo, the strip was underneath the fret being hammered at the time.

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

So, here I am. I believe I now see a stackup of errors I did not anticipate. With the neck supported along most of its length, while installing the frets over the heel, the heel itself was not directly support. Instead I relied on the blocks on either side of it. I see this as a possible way the board was pulled off the neck.

It is also possible that the slot I used on the end block to clear the truss rod left a small, unsuported gap in the center. This is where the crack is.

So it seems maybe the set up was to blame. But I can also say that these frets seem very hard to hammer in, harder than I expected. Now maybe that is because this is my first attempt with zircote, don't know.

So there it is, most all that I know at this point. I can give a few more details if needed, for example I did make a gage out of fret wire with the barbs ground off to check depth across the slot, and also put a small chamfer on both edges of each slot.

Thanks,

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Hey Padma,

As my wife always says, "Another thought, another mistake!"

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I think you've pretty well figured it out. I'll add: with the heel unsupported, the two pieces supporting the extension were able to splay out under the hammer blows, forming a V-shaped support under the 14th fret--hence the split.

You have experience hammering frets. Have you used this fretwire before? Is it a new batch? (Fretwire of the same #, from the same company, can vary significantly.) In any case, since you have a feel for how frets ought to drive in, make sure to do some tests by hammering in the wire you are using in a scrap of your fingerboard wood. Measurements are important, and it sounds like you covered those bases. The final test is to tap in some frets.

I'll assume this will be a guitar for yourself or a close friend. The split in the fingerboard and the separation from the neck could be soundly repaired with thin super glue. If you can clamp both of these shut so that there are no gaps, you can then back off on the clamp pressure, run an excess of glue in, and retighten the clamps. CA will make a very strong bond to the Titebond in the split seam. There are more thorough ways of repairing this, but on your first build, keeping up momentum is important.

What to do about the now mangled fret slots #14&15? Again, there are several approaches that would work. A serviceable quick fix will be to fill the slot with a mixture of thick CA and ebony dust, and then insert a .010" feeler gauge wrapped with a layer of waxed paper. Ziricote dust might work, but you'll need something that doesn't kick the superglue off too rapidly. Do some tests. Let the glue set up for 24 hours, then recut the slot.

Thanks Eric, those are good suggestions. I know the split will be invisible, I had to hold it apart to take the photo. Same for the gap where it separated from the neck. Question is, if i use super glue, and let it wick in, will the glue leave a mark on the surface? Or can it be carefully removed/sanded once it sets? I'm pretty sure I can get some Titebond in there if necessary, I know how to clean that up.

For gluing the board back to the neck, if I use the super glue, will I be able to remove the board in the future if necessary? I know Titebond is not as easy to remove as HHG, but I have done it quite a few times. Never tried to take a SG joint apart though.

I'm not sure why these frets seem so hard to tap in. Yes, everything here is different than what I am used to. Different wire, different wood. I tried some samples early on, they seemed very hard to install on a loose test board. I found if I flexed the board, they went in easily. So i carefully measured everything to make sure the slots and tangs were correct. I used the Stew Mac Japanese fret saw in the SM miter box, and it is SM wire for what that's worth. Dimensionally everything should work, seems I finally decided the slots were .002" wider than the tang.

I would like to recut the slots, but that SM Japanese saw just doesn't work for me. The teeth are so aggressive, just can't control it cutting by hand. Wish i'd bought the other saw, but I'm so deep into this project already that I can't justify another tool purchase at this point.

yes, this one is for myself, as it is Number 1. But my goal here is to learn how to do this right, not just to get it done. Momentum is a funny word here, as I am now on year two of getting this darn thing done. I've even lost track of how many times I have had to rebuild, buy more wood, start over, fix mistakes, etc, all to get it up to a level that I feel comfortable putting my name on. And there are many days, like today, when it all ain't so fun any more. But I'll keep going, because I am stubborn, and refuse to fail.

So, looks like I have some more learning to do. I'll get these cracks fixed, then put it on hold until I figure out how to get this fret wire installed.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions,

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I am in the same situation, first build but I would rather understand everything I am doing rather than just getting it done.

The neck support I have is very similar to yours and have used it to refret a lot of guitars. The big difference is I tape shims to the bottom of the heel and make sure it is perfectly supported. However most of the time when I am not rushed I will fret the board up to the 12th fret and then install the neck. That allows me to clamp the fretboard extension easier without having the frets in the way.



What seems odd is that you would have done that much damage just from a fretting hammer. Even stubborn frets only require a light rap of the hammer. If a fret doesn't go in with just a light rap then something is wrong. I use a small fine tooth file and just run it down the edge of the tang to cut some of the tooth off of the tang. That usually works pretty well for me.

The one thing you don't want to do is pound frets in that are tight. That will put a back bow in your neck. That is what you do on a neck with a non adjustable truss rod when it has too much forward bow when strung up. You can adjust the back bow out with the truss rod. If you have not leveled the frets (which I don't do until after the neck is on the guitar) you can compensate that way too.

I wouldn't get too down, the repairs can be done pretty easily and I doubt anyone will ever be able to spot them except you.

Cheers
Bob

Take the cut off portion of the fretboard blank, assuming you have a cut-off portion of course, and try fretting that before you got back to the board.
Helps to get a feel for the wood/fret ineraction without fear of hurting the actual board. It may have been said and I overlooked it, but have
you compared your fret saw kerf with tang width to make sure the issue isn't too narrow of a slot? Were it me, I'd forgo the CA glue for the
board to the neck joint just for future accessibility. You can thin out that Titebond if need be, just takes a bitter longer to set up and don't
get it too watery.

Thanks all, I now have an idea of what to do. Fixing the split and the pull-off will be simple. Fixing the divots and fret marker dot, tedious and nerve racking. Once that is done, I will set the neck aside, while I figure out the next step. Which is, how do I install these frets?

Seems another case of forget everything I know, forget all my experience, take the cutoff and start over from scratch. A light tap huh? The ones I have installed were more like driving nails. That's one thing that surprised me, because if the neck was on the guitar while I did this, no way would I have been able to back the extension enough to install the frets. As you see, i busted the board and tore it loose from the neck. If it was on the guitar, I would have busted the top and likely the sides as well. Yes, there is a problem with how tight they are. And yes I am concerned about back bow, that's one reason I decided not to install the frets on the board before I glued it to the neck; I figured it would be so bent I would have a hard time clamping it flat enough to get a good joint. But I really don't want to pull them all unless I have to. By the way, the neck is ash, so it is hard and stiff, hopefully that will help.

I realize now that the Japanese fret saw was a mistake (sorry, SM!) The cut is just too aggressive to use freehand. In the miter box, OK, works fine and cuts fast. Free hand, it grabs, skips, and tears, making it unusable to recut slots. So, I am back to not having a saw with a proper kerf, which means getting creative. I'll look at filing the barbs on the tang, and see where that gets me. I hate to have to modify every fret that way, but if necessary, then so be it.

But at least I got one question answered, "a light tap." Not driving nails hard. I figure I have been set back and my progress is on hold (again) while I figure this out, so any further suggestions are welcome!

Thanks again,

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

From your pictures, it appears that the ends of frets 11. 12. &13 are not seated properly. Can't tell about the others toward the nut. If a fret does not hammer in with a light tap, something is wrong and you should stop. The Padma says it with humor, but he speaks the truth. Judging from the damage you did to the fretboard, you are hammering way too hard. John Henry was good on the railroad, but he could make a real mess out of a fretboard.

Do you slightly bevel the opening of the fret slot with a 3-cornered file. Do you radius your frets with the fret radius tool, or by hand/pliers/hammer? You should definitely use the radius tool, and slightly over bend the frets so that the ends will seat. Never over hammer the center or the ends will pop up. Make sure the fret slots are clean. A little chip of wood or glue in the slot can keep the fret from seating.

You shouldn't blame the saw. I don't have that SM Japanese saw but there are plenty of people who do and your complaint of it is the first that I've heard on this forum. A very common problem with people new to Japanese saws is putting too much weight on the saw. They are much more delicate than their western counterparts and you really do have to 'let the saw do the work' - which means hardly any downward pressure at all. In fact think of just pulling the saw directly backwards, rather than down. Using it freehand shouldn't prevent it from working.
Also check the position of the Neck/fretboard on the bench. It's always a little easier when the work is directly positioned over one of the bench legs, unless you have a very thick bench top.
If you still have problems there are other methods of inserting frets. I use the Veritas Carcass saw which cuts a slightly wider slot. I glue the frets in with either Fish or HHG and then clamp with a G clamp and a hardwood caul. The frets are initially seated by tapping them in, so easy that I use the end of a Chisel handle.

There is a reason they call ziricote "Mexican crack wood". Even with moderate force it can crack. If you have no other saws, you can find a section of the saw you don't commonly use (usually the extreme front or back) and set a few of the teeth to cut a slightly wider kerf.
The most difficult part of that repair will be filling the divots inconspicuously. If there is any chance of finding the missing fragments that would give the best chance of success. Creative use of an inlay might also work.

My guess is that it's Japanese hardpoint saw. I wouldn't try to set it. I mean it might be possible but the teeth are very prone to snapping.

Phil,

I'm a noob myself and you've already been given the answers, but I wanted to tell you that I just completed a FB using the SM Japanese saw and did it freehand. The key for me is to use an exacto knife to score the line where I want the slot, then tilt the saw so you are starting the cut in the edge, not flat across the top of the board. As Michael said, a very light touch is used to draw the saw back, and gently down to meet the opposite edge of the board. The first few pulls will clearly deepen the score near the edges and will start to give a little score in the center of the board. As this gets deeper, it becomes easier to stay in the slot. So the motion is an arc as you're drawing the saw back. This was how I was taught to slot frets, by a pro who did it that way with that exact saw.

Good observations, here is my reply:

Fret ends not seated? I agree, but can't drive them in any further. you can also see the slots are deeper than needed, apparently.

Did I bevel the openings of the slots with a cornered file? Yes.

Did I radius the frets with a radius tool? Yes.

Were they overbent? Yes.

Were the slots clean? Yes.

So back to your first observation, "something is wrong and you should stop." So my big question is, what is wrong? Where do I look next?

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Phil...
well seems like there is only a few things left...
gremlins or karma, maybe divine interference. Non of these answers will really help any but me thought you could use a morning laugh.

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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just some observations:

-what is the width of your slots? -use feeler gages to check.
-what is the tang width of your fret wire? use accurate calipers to check.
-that fret marker dot, if you had to pound that in too, makes an excellent stress riser.
-fret the board first then attach it to the neck.

Thanks Padma, I needed that!

Actually though I am ruling out Gremlins for the moment. Though they have made an appearance, and hid some of my wood. As for the karma, or divine interference, well, I was feeling pretty good about myself for the way the neck carving turned out. Maybe I needed to be taken back a notch or two...

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

OK folks, here are the results of this morning's experiments. First, I tried the suggested method of using that saw, as Beth and Todd said. It worked better, and I think with some practice I might actually get some use out of it outside the miter box. But it is such a different animal than my other small saws, the ones with small kerfs and tiny teeth. I have one I use for a starter on my dulcimers, .010" kerf I believe, it is so smooth I can cut a straight line by eye. Oh well, another tool, another chance to start over from scratch on how to use it.

Anyway, I tried a couple of things on scrap blocks. First I took a piece of mahogany, used a backer block to support the Japanese Fret Saw, and carefully cut a slot. I then took a straight piece of fret wire (one of the ones I hammered straight yesterday before removing it from the board) and tried to hammer it in. For this first quick and dirty, I did nothing else. I did not file chamfers on the top edges of the slot, did not chase it with another saw blade just to make sure of width, nothing. Just cut it to depth with the JFS, and installed the fret. Much to my surprise, it went in like a dream. Just a few light taps with the hammer, and it was fully seated across its full length. OK, so far so good.

Next I took one of my previous failed zircote fret boards, and did the same thing. I carefully cut the slot, but it did not go quite as well. Did get it to work, but it was more work, and the saw jumped a couple of times, making one end of the slot a widened looking mess. (That's what always happens with this saw, maybe the new techniques and some practice will correct that in the future.) But I did get the slot cut, then carefully chamfered the edges with files, and installed the same fret as I used in the mahogany test. And guess what? Light taps did not work, no way no how. I was back to hitting this thing hard enough to drive nails, and I ain't talking finish nails either. I had to pretty much pound the heck out of it to get it seated.

So, now I have another piece of the puzzle, and a very good question for all you experienced folks. And it is this:

Does a harder, more brittle wood require a different treatment of the frets and slots than a softer or more pliable wood?

It seems so, from this experiment. If so, then what? A wider slot? Filing the tangs on the fret wire as a couple suggested? And once I get this figured out, do I need to remove all the frets I've already put in so I can rework them?

Thanks again,

_________________
Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."