Official Luthiers Forum!

Since I gravitate to automation and power tools, a week with Todd Stock would be enlightening.

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David Malicky

Mario Proulx, Wayne Henderson, or Dana Bourgeois. I was lucky enough to attend a voicing seminar with Dana a while back, and it went a long way towards demystifying the process for me. I play bluegrass music, so picking the brains of any of these guys would help me build the kinds of guitars I love. Can't forget John Arnold either, who I hope to meet next time I'm down in Tennessee. The nicest wood in my stash right now are the 3 Red Spruce tops I bought from the two trees John & the Hamptons cut & offered for sale on the OLF Classifieds a while back. John was out of town the weekend I rode down to buy the tops, so hopefully I can catch him next time. If you're reading this John, will you be at the next East Tennessee Luthier's Guild meeting? As long as I can work it into my schedule I'll be making the trip...hope to see you there.

I knew someone who worked in Ken Parker's shop and made it sound as much like an education as a job. I've also heard his name come up respectfully in more than just luthiery circles. I'd like to spend some time there for sure-

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

You would have a pretty long commute as Howard lives in N. Cal.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Sorry for the misspelling. I didn't mean any disrespect. Spelling has always been my down fall.

I figure there would be a wealth of information to be learned from Michael Heiden

I would love to spend time with Ervin Somogyi, Joel Stehr, Tim McKnight or Mark Hatcher. I've got to hang out with mark before with tony. He's a really cool dude and his work is amazing!

Jason Kostal or Jeff Traugott. Visiting Jeff's shop was awesome, but a formal learning environment would be another story entirely.

Hmm.. maybe he'd be able to teach me how to build a guitar that could play itself....

Jose Romanillos, but I fear I've missed the chance.

A friend of mine here built a guitar with Sergei de Jonge and really liked the experience.

I have to say that I spent a week with Frank Finnochio back when I was thinking in terms of steel string guitars, and benefited a great deal from it. I'm curious about his archtop course.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Cumpiano. Yeah, I know there are many builders that are much more highly regarded, especially on this forum. But as a beginner, his book has influenced me the most as far as building methods. In planning my first completely acoustic build, I plan to use many of the methods in his book, but there are a lot of places where I will be doing things the way I do them, based on my current building experience with electrics. I will take what I like and think will work from his book, add that to what I already prefer, and sprinkle in anything else I learn that I think I can use.
But spending a week with him, watching and or building alongside him would give me deeper insight into the methods in the book, as well as any thing that has changed in that regard. And I can take what I've learned, disregard what doesn't work for me, and come out a better builder on the other side.
Again, I chose Cumpiano because his method appeals to me. But I could just as easily be happy with any experienced builder on this site, regardless of method. Todd Stock, Filippo Morelli, Tony Karol, Alan Carruth, just to name a few. I can learn from anyone, and adapt what I learn to fit my style and preference. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who has been there before me, would be someone I'd be interested in learning from.
Just the view from an amateur's side.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

Frank was fun to work with, and I could get to his place in about an hour and 20 minutes if I avoided rush hour. (He does have a place to put people up for the week, but I needed to be home one evening). I built his version of a fingerstyle guitar which is somewhere in between a 000 and a medium jumbo - one of the nicest guitar shapes I've seen.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Trevor Gore, hands down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Jason McGowan
M&S Guitars
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United States of America, looks like another silent night
As we're sung to sleep by philosophies that save the trees and kill the children....
Casting Crowns

Jim Olson. That thread in the AGF that some rich dude posted a gazillion pictures of Jim building his custom BRW, encrusted with beautiful inlay and a BRW neck (as well as about 11 other guitars simultaneously was very intriguing. I'm having enough trouble building just one. This guy pumps out 12 at a time and everything looks perfect on each one of them.

However I'm thinking about using my GI Bill to attend Robert Venn School of luthiery out in Phoenix. I'd never pay $10K of my own money for a luthiery course, but I will gladly use a $10K chunk out of my GI Bill for it. Anyone familiar with this?

I didn't read all the posts so perhaps this has been asked already, but what is it that you'd like to learn?

Robert Ruck

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John Nowicki

How to not suck at building!

Better understanding of voicing
Better mitering technique
Better hand plane technique
cleaner binding jobs
cleaner work in general (going to take Somagyi's advice and cover the soundboard from here on out)
finishing methods
fanned frets
considerations (calculations) for compensating bracing in longer scale lengths
seeing someone's process for managing multiple builds simultaneously

Not to be a buzz kill or personally insulting to anyone here but I also wonder if some of the super-stars mentioned would want to spend a week with some of you guys.... Again no insult intended but there is another side to this that I have not seen mentioned in this thread not even once....

If the belief is that you can throw money at any pro Luthier and they will cave to having your arses grace their personal shops and lives for a week me thinks that's a bit short sided. If this is an exercise in science fiction where the considerations of reality are left at the door, then OK dream on and have fun.

We have had apprentices and I personally have been an apprentice for a several year period. What had to happen first is the Luthier who runs the show has to be able stand you, put up with you for hours, deal with your approach to learning, Lutherie, and even the small talk that invariably happens in any man cave situation. No offense to female Luthiers but I suspect the consideration is the same in woman cave situations but can't know for sure.

Did you know that part of the selection process for taking on a student or an apprentice is an evaluation on the part of the Luthier as to if they think that you are capable of a) learning.... b) not upsetting their daily routine... c) don't smell..... and d) even personal politics may create an incompatibility especially these days leading to someone not wishing to deal with you at all.... We live in polarizing times, an understatement....

We had Link Van Cleave out as our apprentice this past summer and Link lived in our shop for three weeks. It was so very important to him to learn that he was willing to sleep on the floor in our office, have no TV, deal with the issues associated with living in the center of the People's Republic of Ann Arbor... all so that he could glean some tips and tricks, methods and procedures, etc because learning was important to him.

In Link's case the compatibility was excellent at least from our point of view and I hope that Link feels the same way. It went well, he learned VERY well and taught us a thing or three too about sharpening, glues, etc. Other than my untimely penchant for having a small heart attack on the front porch in the middle of his visit it all went very well....

Anyway when you guys consider who you might want to spend a week with perhaps also consider what kind of person that you are in the broad sense, your approach to learning, your ability to shut the heck up and listen, listen, and when you are done doing that listen some more because humans never listen enough, etc. Even your politics can be incompatible with real-deal Luthiers who often live simple lives, don't make a lot of money, have common issues on a personal level such as needing to solve business and personal problems just like anyone else.

Consider what YOU have to offer in return. Will you be a success or a waste of time to have a Luthier associate their name with you? Do you have skills that will be a value-add to the Luthier or even perhaps a great bottle of scotch or a medical pot license.... Or, in short, what do you bring to the dance?

If it were me dreaming about who I want to spend time with I think that I would invariably also consider pulling my finger out and giving some consideration to if the Luthier of choice would wanna spend time with me too. If you think money will make it happen, always, wrong.... Luthiers value their space, time, reputations far more than a quick buck. At least this is my experience.

As for me I would want to spend a week with Miley Cyrus but again my mind considers if she would want to spend a week with me and the answer is very clearly no so dream on Hesh...

This is a fun topic though but I thought it was important for some of you who seem serious about spending a week with someone to recognize this is not like buying a ticket to a pro football game. There always will be the question as to if the Luthier in question believes that they would want to spend a week with you too AND what will be key here, perhaps... is what you bring to the dance.

That's a very good question and partly why I haven't previously replied to this thread. Probably the best approach is to identify your weaknesses or the area/areas where your knowledge is lacking. That's the time to select the person to go study with. Not much point in going to study fretting if you are already very proficient at that task. Virtually everything can be learnt through a combination of books, the net and learning from your own attempts. The real difference in being taught on a one to one basis is usually the time it saves. That time factor saving is somewhat diminished now that we have ready access to huge amounts of information on the net. Of course there are certain aspects that are not so easy to teach through diagrams or the written word - carving a Violin scroll for example. It's easy enough to get something to look like one but without constant feedback it's extremely difficult to understand what makes a well executed scroll. That's the kind of example where a good teacher can save countless hours on your own attempts.
So to (not) answer the question: I'd probably opt for 3 or 4 very short courses with 3 or 4 different makers

Relax... no need to get upset....

Regardless of if the Luthier of choice does in fact offer learning opportunities I again will mention that this does not in an of itself mean that the Luthier of choice does not in fact have his or her own personal choices in the matter as to whom they take on. I know a number of Luthiers who teach, hell we do it too, and it's always a consideration as to who may be coming to dinner, compatibility, willingness to learn, aptitude, personality, etc. If it's not it should be and perhaps the results for all might be better....

It's a perspective from the other end of the transaction and as such a consideration. Not sure if it was my message or the messenger... that offended you to the degree that you now want to take your football and go home but I don't see it as my problem. You asked a question, I responded, live with it.... and get over it.

I'm not here to argue, you guys have hurt the place enough with that........... so I'll stay out of your thread, Filippo however you remain very welcome in my threads...

Deleted.

Ok fair enough and I thank you for the reconsideration, Filippo.

Teaching AND Learning is a process of sorts and everyone needs to have skin in the game and not just money... (this is not directed at anyone just a general statement).

For those of us who do teach it's every bit as important that our students, apprentices, etc. receive "real value" from their time and efforts and just as important as how we might stress over the details of the current guitar under construction. It's not only a reputation thing but to me it's an ethical thing that if one hangs out a shingle to teach that they are in fact a great teacher AND that the students are there to learn as well. Not sure this even needed to be said.

Todd has mentioned in the past that folks learn in different ways - exactly correct in my view too. If this is the case, and I believe that it is in fact the case, the compatibility between what a potential student brings to the table, their expectations, etc, and what the Luthier/teacher offers and his/her approach is going to most certainly make or break any definition of success resulting from the endeavor.

The entire intent of my original post was to introduce folks to the idea that where ever you may want to study is again not as simple as purchasing a ticket and securing a seat. Many instructors will want to know about you, what have been your accomplishments, what's your skill level, are you a potential liability nightmare waiting to happen as you slice off a finger on the Rikon Deluxe, etc. There's more too in terms of simply being compatible with the Luthier long enough that both gain value and view the session as a successful experience.

Here is a bit more since you let me back in...

To many of us our shops are not only a home away from home but to some of us it may be the real home, our shops.... It's were we spend countless hours, days, weeks, etc. and as such there are also privacy concerns as well. No one wants to be uncomfortable in their own homes or shops and this is again why countless wanna-be apprentices can't find a gig to be an apprentice with. Compatibility is everything and my real point is that this compatibility has two perspectives as well - the Luthiers and the students. Both perspectives need to be compatible. If they are everyone wins, if not it could be a very long slog of a week....

And there is even more to consider such as if the Luthier is set-up for students or is this a one-off. Insurance costs skyrocket when one takes on students and it's important to know, in my view, if the Luthier of choice is indeed insured to have students on the premises. Talking to others who may have studied at the same shop might be a good thing to do too.

Much of what we in the public know about anyone in the trade can't be much more than a 30,000 foot view. You can't know if you are signing up with the Unibomber.... or the best teaching Luthier on the planet.

One Luthier who teaches only offers a very small but important subset of guitar building, voicing. You will not learn how to build a guitar in these classes but you may learn how to voice instruments beyond guitars. His students tend to love him and greatly appreciate their time with him. But can you imagine the disconnect if one thought that they would learn all about carving necks in his courses only to spend a day on top selection?

These days I'm very possibly the last one that anyone would let in their classes - I talk too much..... I'm that rotten little kid who's favorite word (until I was a teen...) was "why, why, why.... etc."

So excuse me please for seeing the thread and it's progression as a rather romantic view of who would I want to learn from. Instead harsh realities came to my mind, compatibility, what the student brings to the dance, definitions for success, etc.

I't nice to dream though but I wanted to suggest some reality too if anyone is serious about actually walking the walk and studying with a pro - you have to have your best game on too.

Lastly is this notion of what a week may get you... I started with a class, a one week class.... focusing only on setting up my own guitars. That one week turned into four weeks to get through the material and David Collin likely lost his arse on what I paid for the time... Again the focus was ONLY on setting up my own guitars and we spent four weeks on this topic.... Granted I also spent three more years with him but that was the apprentice part and covered most other things.

But I have to wonder what can be done in a week.... I'm not a slow learner by any one's standards but a week was not enough. I know Frank F. has one week classes and he is a GREAT instructor as well (I have his DVDs) but if there is only a week available I have to think that it's more an exercise in assembling, quickly... an instrument and can't get into theory, nuances, history, other approaches, etc.

So now we have two examples, Somogyi who only covers voicing in his one week and me and how it took me four weeks to cover the material for just a set-up.... As such I would also have reservations as to how much value can be received in one week's time.

If I still made wooden guitars A week studying with Alexander Batov would be interesting. I imagine him to be very patient and disciplined . Something which I lack at times. His work has always impressed me as being some of the best of the craft have seen.

Im not advertising for him, I don't know him, Ive never played one of his instruments,
He just makes great looking guitars and stringed instruments which
for some reason seem to mesmerize me as being beautiful


http://www.vihuelademano.com/

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You just pick up a chord, go twang, and you're got music. -Sid Vicious

His work is outstanding. Not only that but he obviously has an extremely good eye for design, even though much of his work is based on historical examples. You look at some of his rosettes and it's virtually impossible to see the joints on the purfling rings. From someone who has tried that type of thing many times let me tell you that it is mighty difficult to accomplish.
The Early Music Shop had one of his Vihuelas (used) in a few months ago. It wasn't there long.
Just might need more than a week though.

Just did recon on Flammang and was VERY impressed - absolutely beautiful instruments and finishes as well.