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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:36 am 
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When I free handed I use to have to spit on my arm to shave. With my new Veritas Mk II honing guide I can now do it dry. No more wasted spit. eek


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:56 am 
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Oh! Another one who was taught a wrong freehand method!
I must be one of those with an extremely high degree of natural talent. It must be the gene xuv128620 - otherwise known as the gene for freehand sharpening. I'm quite thankful for it. I was beginning to think that one had to spend at least eight years, meditating in absolute silence at the top of a mountain :?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:00 am 
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Michael, I see your point. I was talking expert and speaking of anything with an edge, from chainsaws to gouges. No argument on plane blades, easy to teach in a short time.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:31 am 
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Look at this guys method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM

Known as convex bevel sharpening. Good for Guitar bar ends although he obviously uses it for general furniture/woodworking.
Obviously works. I don't use that method (except for belly chisels) but I do use a primary/secondary bevel. I use very short strokes on the stone. Maybe 2 inches forward, 2 inches back. The greater the movement, the more chance you have of losing the required angle. That's why figure 8's and whole length strokes are much more difficult to learn, figure 8's especially - and they are certainly an unnecessary difficulty.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:46 pm 
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I can sharpen my LN Model Maker's blade freehand, but I have a difficult time balancing chisels and standard size plane irons.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Michael.N. wrote:
Look at this guys method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM

Known as convex bevel sharpening. Good for Guitar bar ends although he obviously uses it for general furniture/woodworking.
Obviously works. I don't use that method (except for belly chisels) but I do use a primary/secondary bevel. I use very short strokes on the stone. Maybe 2 inches forward, 2 inches back. The greater the movement, the more chance you have of losing the required angle. That's why figure 8's and whole length strokes are much more difficult to learn, figure 8's especially - and they are certainly an unnecessary difficulty.


He's doing everything that's needed - maintain the angle, work through the grits and hone. Most people I've taught were not aware that the angle is crucial for the tool and they usually have a hard time maintaining the angle while they're sharpening. I haven't found the need for a convex bevel but if it gives him some extra clearance while he works then that's fine. I agree on the short strokes; I work different areas of the stone and don't just stay in the middle but I also only use diamond stones now.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:45 pm 
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I have used the MKII but I think mine is defective. No matter how much I piddle with it, stare at it, ponder over it, it always sharpens at an unacceptable skewed angle. This may be acceptable for chisels but not plane blades. I always make sure I tighten both screws the same, and lined up just right, tested on many different planes and chisels and I get the same results. I don't think the roller and tool holder rest are coplanar. Ive been meaning to contact Veritas with my issue but keep forgetting.

So, I have started sharpening by hand using the Paul Sellers method (look it up on Utube) and having decent results. I am using diamond stones which are a HUGE improvement over water stones. I might go back to a honing guide some day but I want to fine tune my hand sharpening skills first, and so far I'm getting my blades just as sharp as a honing guide, just not as consistent...yet.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Goodin wrote:
I have used the MKII but I think mine is defective. No matter how much I piddle with it, stare at it, ponder over it, it always sharpens at an unacceptable skewed angle. This may be acceptable for chisels but not plane blades. I always make sure I tighten both screws the same, and lined up just right, tested on many different planes and chisels and I get the same results. I don't think the roller and tool holder rest are coplanar. Ive been meaning to contact Veritas with my issue but keep forgetting.


so maybe that´s what i have, a defective unit - i get that skewed edge if i don´t fine tune it for a while, which i do with a light hammer. i too make sure the screws are equally tightened. i contacted lee valley about it (twice, IIRC) but their reply wasn´t too helpful.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:12 pm 
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naccoachbob wrote:
If I missed this, I'm sorry, but I didn't see anyone referring to the secondary bevel that you can put on with this jig. Just rotate a knob 180 deg. and you can make it sharper with that second bevel.
I do agree it's finicky and thin blades can get off track. Next time I buy one, it'll be one that clamps at the sides as someone else noted.
Also, you need some real estate for this thing. I've got a couple of oil stones on a triangular base and they're pretty thin. I'd prefer 3"X10" or so to take better advantage of it. I also use it with sandpaper doing the "scary sharp" type honing.
I don't dislike mine, but would not buy another even with the double bevel thing.


The problem with using a secondary bevel is that it forces you to use the jig to get a good result when you resharpen.

Use the jig with a single bevel to get a good foundation, then do touch-up sharpening by hand. The touch-ups will eventually get you to a convex bevel and when that gets too severe to get a good edge quickly (or if you chip an edge), then you go back to the jig and reestablish the bevel.

Faster/easier sharpening means you spend more time with a good edge. Instead of using the jig for everything, use it once every 30-50 sharpenings to keep a good foundation -do everything else freehand, time with the jig will train you in the proper movement.

My Veritas Mk1 jig mostly just sits in the drawer -sometimes used for skews. An eclipse jig with a little filing to relieve the center and clean up the corners is the one that normally gets used when I resort to a jig.

-jd


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:56 pm 
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windsurfer wrote:
naccoachbob wrote:
If I missed this, I'm sorry, but I didn't see anyone referring to the secondary bevel that you can put on with this jig. Just rotate a knob 180 deg. and you can make it sharper with that second bevel.
I do agree it's finicky and thin blades can get off track. Next time I buy one, it'll be one that clamps at the sides as someone else noted.
Also, you need some real estate for this thing. I've got a couple of oil stones on a triangular base and they're pretty thin. I'd prefer 3"X10" or so to take better advantage of it. I also use it with sandpaper doing the "scary sharp" type honing.
I don't dislike mine, but would not buy another even with the double bevel thing.


The problem with using a secondary bevel is that it forces you to use the jig to get a good result when you resharpen.

Use the jig with a single bevel to get a good foundation, then do touch-up sharpening by hand. The touch-ups will eventually get you to a convex bevel and when that gets too severe to get a good edge quickly (or if you chip an edge), then you go back to the jig and reestablish the bevel.

Faster/easier sharpening means you spend more time with a good edge. Instead of using the jig for everything, use it once every 30-50 sharpenings to keep a good foundation -do everything else freehand, time with the jig will train you in the proper movement.

My Veritas Mk1 jig mostly just sits in the drawer -sometimes used for skews. An eclipse jig with a little filing to relieve the center and clean up the corners is the one that normally gets used when I resort to a jig.

-jd

windsurfer you and I think alike. As I said before I want to have a jig/tool to set a standard, a base, a foundation for which then I can do quick free hand sharpening off off till that point where I need to level again.

If it works well for me then I will report back ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:46 am 
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mqbernardo wrote:
Goodin wrote:
I have used the MKII but I think mine is defective. No matter how much I piddle with it, stare at it, ponder over it, it always sharpens at an unacceptable skewed angle. This may be acceptable for chisels but not plane blades. I always make sure I tighten both screws the same, and lined up just right, tested on many different planes and chisels and I get the same results. I don't think the roller and tool holder rest are coplanar. Ive been meaning to contact Veritas with my issue but keep forgetting.


so maybe that´s what i have, a defective unit - i get that skewed edge if i don´t fine tune it for a while, which i do with a light hammer. i too make sure the screws are equally tightened. i contacted lee valley about it (twice, IIRC) but their reply wasn´t too helpful.


Could you explain what you do to fine tune it? I might try that.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:25 pm 
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i just give it a light tap with a small hammer, as you´d do in a wooden plane to adjust the blade, until i get the microbevel parallel to the blade edge.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Okaaaaayyyy ...

The fact of the matter is this ...if all you want to do is to simply achieve a sharp edge ...then fine ...freehand sharpening will do that ...

but ...if you want to sharpen a chisel or a plane iron perfectly square , then the only way to do it is with a jig .

There are technical reasons why this is so, which are probably not understood fully by anybody without a background in metallurgy, or engineering , (and more importantly in how things actually happen in modern production processes.

Fact is, when chisels and plane irons are quenched in the final "tempering" process, it is in a saline bath, and the chisels/irons are quenched by submerging them longitudinally rather than latitudinally, which inevitably leads to the inescapable fact that one side of the chisel /plane iron will be harder than the other ...so ..when you come to sharpen them, despite your best efforts ...you won't get a constant bevel sharpening freehand, because one side will always be harder than t'other.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:52 am 
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murrmac wrote:
Okaaaaayyyy ...
but ...if you want to sharpen a chisel or a plane iron perfectly square , then the only way to do it is with a jig .


I can get a blade closer to perfectly square by hand than with that junk MK II I have.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:35 am 
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Todd Stock wrote:
I would venture to say that perhaps 1 in 10 hand tool woodworkers have any clue as to how to get an edge on steel.


Amazing how many think they have sharp tools until they get to try out a tool that is really sharp.

Todd Stock wrote:
... I am much more interested in a sharp, durable edge than how the craftsman gets there.


Exactly

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Todd Stock wrote:
I think there is some variety in quench and annealing...I've worked with brine, oil, and air-quenched alloys, and I'm sure there are more, as well as industrial processes that are designed to optimize yield and minimize distortion. Given that commercial chisels and plane blades are finish-ground after initial shaping/forging/hardening/tempering, the geometry is locked in at the factory. The problems I see are craftsman-related for the most part; failure to grind the edge square, failure to correct that in honing, etc. Not at all unusual to see someone drop $300 on a few chisels or a single plane and totally bung up the tool trying to 'tune it up' - despite only needing a light honing to place it in service.

I spent a lot of time doing neander stuff way back when, and hung out in a lot of shops that were set up by woodworkers that should have been able to sharpen, given the thousands of dollars they spent on rare or expensive, handmade tools. In a nutshell, a sharp blade was and is a rare thing to find in most shops, and I would venture to say that perhaps 1 in 10 hand tool woodworkers have any clue as to how to get an edge on steel. Having seen this firsthand, I am much more interested in a sharp, durable edge than how the craftsman gets there.


I think you are being a tad dismissive there, Todd. All woodworkers have access to the internet, ergo they have access to information how to sharpen chisels and plane irons so ...given that it doesn't exactly require the manual skill of a Michaelangelo or a da Vinci ( or their intellectual qualities either) to sharpen a blade to razor sharp ...I think most woodworkers nowadays do actually know how to sharpen their tools correctly.

Maybe years ago things were different ...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:56 am 
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murrmac wrote:
Okaaaaayyyy ...

The fact of the matter is this ...if all you want to do is to simply achieve a sharp edge ...then fine ...freehand sharpening will do that ...

but ...if you want to sharpen a chisel or a plane iron perfectly square , then the only way to do it is with a jig .

There are technical reasons why this is so, which are probably not understood fully by anybody without a background in metallurgy, or engineering , (and more importantly in how things actually happen in modern production processes.

Fact is, when chisels and plane irons are quenched in the final "tempering" process, it is in a saline bath, and the chisels/irons are quenched by submerging them longitudinally rather than latitudinally, which inevitably leads to the inescapable fact that one side of the chisel /plane iron will be harder than the other ...so ..when you come to sharpen them, despite your best efforts ...you won't get a constant bevel sharpening freehand, because one side will always be harder than t'other.


Sorry but that's just theoretical nonsense that has absolutely no bearing in the real world. With freehand sharpening it's very easy to adjust or alter the amount of pressure on either edge/side of the blade. If you aren't able to adjust the amount of pressure it simply would not be possible to produce a cambered blade. Most of my plane blades are cambered, one quite severe.
A few weeks ago I converted a small carving chisel that was beveled each side, to a single sided bevel. I did it on a very coarse oil stone. I had to remove something like 1/4" of metal. All done freehand. It turned out perfectly square and with only a slight bit of convexity.
According to your 'theory' it should have turned into a skew. . . . it didn't! and the answer is quite obvious why. It's the same reason why all my other chisels are square, despite freehand sharpening.



These users thanked the author Michael.N. for the post: Bjornstad (Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:36 pm)
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