Official Luthiers Forum!

Time for some introspection.

Are you most concerned with not losing hours worth of work, or most concerned with getting it right?

If your priority is getting it right, this is not a close call. Re-route the binding channels to the depth of the mistake and re-bind the guitar (including cutting new miters at the Florentine edge). And, when you re-bind, you can also fix that nasty binding gap in the waist that you address in the other thread you started.

If your priority really is not losing hours worth of work, then you have several options, but none of them will make it right. All of them will look hokey.

Adding an armrest bevel will take significantly more time than re-binding the guitar.

What good is a flush cut bit (brand new) whose bearing flies off after 4' worth of work? You'd think these things would be reverse threaded, or at least engineered in such a way that this wouldn't happen. It's frustrating to have work jacked up because I can't find a reliable flush cut bit. This is the second time this has happened to me with Freud bits. Luckily, last time I was only routing a template. The bit is in the trash and as far as I am concerned- that's where Freud bits belong.

You are probably right. I'm going to sleep on it and get back to work tomorrow, hopefully with better results.

Ok I'm going to re bind the dang thing.

Question- what's the thinnest I can re bind? The slop in the earlier post was due to the curves of the guitar vs. the rigidity of Gabon Ebony

Or maybe Freud is pointing out a misplaced trust in authority.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Spyder that is a very nice fix for sure.

Joey, wish I had a suggestion for you (I'll keep thinking on it). When things go poorly I try to walk away for awhile; a little wiskey usually helps.

Unfortunately (or is it fortunately?) I've been there, done that too. Here is my solution:

I realized I was not able to get a perfect match of the ebony binding curves to the guitar shape. But, I noticed if I held the binding tight in the channel, it would sit nicely for an inch or two, maybe even three or four, before naturally pulling out exposing a gap. So, I decided to glue it that way, just a few inches at a time. Started at the waist, to make sure that was good since it was the worst spot on all the bindings I routed off. I would hold the binding in place, noting where the gaps started by making a light mark on the top with a soft pencil. Then I would apply glue to that section only between the marks, hold it in place with tape, then add some tape outboard of the marks to keep it tight while the glue set, otherwise I would cause another gap outside the glue marks. I put rubber bands on for clamps, then added bar clamps as necessary to get a tight fit.

OK, so it took a while. Man, the idea of gluing all the binding on at one time, what a dream! But I can say this, after slowly working my way around the guitar, in the end I had the best job I've ever done with binding, with only a couple of very tiny gaps that you have to look hard to find.

These pics show guitar #2 which uses maple, not ebony. But the technique was the same for both.

This picture shows the end of the process, gluing the last sections in place.



This picture shows the completed binding on the top, before scraping. You can see all the pencil marks on the top, these show each section that was glued, one at a time.



Yeah, it was slow, but it worked like a dream. By the way, I did all my bending on a pipe by hand, probably would have been closer to net shape if I used a form and blanket, but I don't have one yet. And I also broke many pieces of ebony before getting it this close, and didn't want to push my luck any further!

Hope this helps,

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Don't panic!

It looks from your pics that you've only cut into the side thickness 0.5mm or less, So I'd be guessing that you have enough side thickness left to work with. Depending on your memory, how much side thickness could you see when you cut the binding channel? If you can't remember, my guess is that you have enough, otherwise you'd remember the sides being thin. To find out for sure, just rout off the binding (which has to come off anyway) and you'll see the side thickness. If you have more than 1.5mm, you'll be able to scrape your inadvertent ledge flush, then re-cut the binding and purfling channels on just that side (the easy side!!) as per normal and re-do the binding and purfling. There'll be a bit of hand chiselling of channels at the butt, but otherwise it should be a straight forward job and impossible to see that anything went wrong.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Hey finger it's hard to tell from that image but it don't look too bad. I think Trever has the right idea, just scrape/sand the side flush in that area. Else just reroute the whole thing it's no big deal and at the end of the day you will be much happier. Instead of making taller binding maybe think about adding a purfled line or two.

If the time/quality curve is in the right place, you could just route the area that is damaged to accept a new piece of binding, then taper that width into the width of the good binding over a few inches at either end. There would be no abrupt change in binding width (or depth if that is a problem too) and very few would notice.

Ed Minch
Who just stripped 6 coats of varnish off a Nick Lucas Special to get the staining darker - took 3 weeks of staring at it to decide

Seems like many wood bindings come (from LMII, etc.), thicknessed to .080". This is a bit thick for my taste, so I like to take it down to .060". Easier to bend and looks cleaner. When you redo the binding cut the ledge so the binding will inset about .005-.010" from the sides to allow for glue swell, and this will also make scraping MUCH easier.

Before I do a binding route job I always remove the bearing, clean and sharpen the bit, re-install the bearing, and make sure the screw is on there tight. Good practice to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen.

Well, the good thing?? about fixing mistakes or oops! is that you always learn something. I've learned enough to fill an encyclopedia but I'm still working on Volume 2. I'm sure there'll be enough for subsequent volumes too.

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Under Compensated Nut!

Hope it all works out for you. Personally I'd just redo it.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

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"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Joey,
Are you sure you don't like Kent's idea to sunburst? Seems like a good solution... and an opportunity to learn a new skill. I have gotten in trouble before with power tools. Sometimes even more patience is necessary... Scraping can be tedious and can make my hands hurt, but personally, I'd be afraid to use a flush cut router on bindings... not to make you feel any worse than you do... sorry that happened.
Steve

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

"What good is a flush cut bit (brand new) whose bearing flies off after 4' worth of work? You'd think these things would be reverse threaded, or at least engineered in such a way that this wouldn't happen. It's frustrating to have work jacked up because I can't find a reliable flush cut bit. This is the second time this has happened to me with Freud bits. Luckily, last time I was only routing a template. The bit is in the trash and as far as I am concerned- that's where Freud bits belong."

Note to self: Next time you do a Freudian joke add a smilie. ;o)

You can layer ebony without it showing, as long as it's all or mostly black.

I'd re-out for the same height as the boo-boo, but not quite all the way to the top/back purfling. Glue up the side purfling to the bindings, then bring down the thickness with a scraper or thickness sander so you'd end up with something like .060 thick bindings or whatever you routed to. If you rout to the back/top purfling, it's going to show; saves having to redo the top/back purfling. Good luck!

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Well Joey,
lets see now...you have said...

OMFG...
been a nightmare....
What an awful ******* day....
I am so angry I could spontaneously combust...
How in the hell...
I got impatient...
a PITA...
I don't have a good feeling about this.... followed by ~ "I'm not superstitious"
It seems my whole weekend was a waste....
I'm dreading...
took me all friggin day...
I am most concerned with not losing hours worth of work...

And finally...
what's the thinnest I can re bind?


Me will be glad to respond to that question for you.... Me just measured a sheet of paper at .003 so me guess that would be about the thinnest but to answer your question more directly ~ me honestly don't believe you have the patients to pull it off. So to someone with your attitude towards building...me would suggest using black electricians tape. Ya its a bit thicker than paper but a heck of a lot faster.

With all due respect me other suggestion would be to try a different hobby.


blessings
?adma

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.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Quitting is definitely not an option. I lost my temper last night for sure. Unfortunately we can't all be in an unflappable, perpetual state of zen.

Those sound like lyrics. Joey, you should totally write a song out of this

Do you have any of the waste wood form the sides ?
If so match as close as you can the grains.
color-lines etc.
leave the pieces over size-thicker & taller.
the problem will be fitting where the router left a
curved ending
Bend & fit the new pieces/fit - and then re-rout .

Works for me -but takes time.
I've had so many binding router problems
-because All my guitars have a different
design.
And I use test pieces before touching the
guitars with a 20,000 rpm machine.
BUT POOP happens!
That's how we all learn.

BUILD FURNITURE!
Much less stressful!
NO musicality involved.

Mike

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Mike Collins

Actually I just finished a king size walnut bed a few weeks ago. Dining room table is in the works. My other hobby is playing guitars but I've sold all mine to pay to move my wife up to Alaska.

I was hoping to have this finish in time for the new builder challenge. This sets me back pretty good but I'll get back to the grind tonight after work.

I'm considering leaving the binding on the backs alone and just making the top bindings a touch taller. I don't think it would be very noticeable. Maybe I'll do it that and see how it looks and proceed from there.

It looks like the bit cut almost through the binding, but not into the soundboard purfling, it would be easy to make two scarf joints in the remaining binding, and replace the missing binding. On black, the scarf joint will be almost invisible (to everyone but you, of course). And if you bend another piece of the side purfling, you could also use two scarf joints to replace that missing material. The joints in the white purlfing layer will be more visible, but still not very noticible (except to you...). Now, replacing the missing side material is more difficult. It'll be impossible to match the grain, but you could use cutoffs from the sides to make a splint you could glue in that would match the background side color. Would require a little delicate time with the bender to get the fit right, but good practice. Since it's a second guitar, you'll probably not be going to sell it, so I'd go with the easiest fix and see how everything else comes out. At this stage in your luthier career, you'll still be learning a lot about all stages of the build process. Adding a bevel, in my opinion, would be pretty hard with the box closed. On my first guitar, I routed too deep for the back bindings, and also didn't want to waste all that time, so I made a walnut strip up to get the side height back up to where it should be, then glued the bindings and purflings on as normal. That would be another possibility for you, but you've spent all that time on the cutaway, so I wouldn't suggest it as the best way to go.

Best of luck, don't worry yourself too much, learning how to correct the inevitable mistakes is a good part of learning this skillset.

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Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

I love these Whiteside pattern routing/flush cutting bits - http://www.woodcraft.com/product/208490 ... 118cl.aspx

They have them with upper and lower only bearings also. Not cheap, but they cut really cleanly and don't "bite".

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Thanks, I'm definitely in the market for a few reliable router bits.

You could use ebony veneer to repair the routed out section of the binding without removing the rest of it. Perhaps make a decorative inlay for the side. For ebony bindings I have layered veneers and under finish they looked like solid wood. I can ubderstand your reluctance to redo all that work, and if you can come up with an inlay for the side that matches the overall theme of the guitar it might look intentional.

Very often new router bits from any maker don't have the bearings tightened on the bit and they will fly off if you don't screw them down.