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I still think the Selmer style nut stop and zero fret would have worked

I never thought about putting the nut/string retainer into the FB wood before with a zero fret. I'm not sure if I like it or not, but I'm glad you posted that. It gives me another option to consider wehn deciding about FB binding and peghead veneer options.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I should have recognised your brilliance right off and had this thread closed (he said with tongue in cheek)


@jfmckenna,

That is a very interesting solution to the problem. I suppose that would have worked but I still prefer not to have a Zero Fret.


Am I mistaken that a Zero Fret is not as good as using the nut? From my experience in setting guitars up I have always used the nut for adjusting the string hight on the upper frets. I have had many clients say their guitars are much easier to play after I have done a setup which usually includes adjusting the nut slots.

And what about after leveling and dressing the frets?

My opinion is a zero fret is better than a nut. You can't get the action any lower using a nut, and without a zero fret the nut becomes much more difficult to make and is more likely to cause problems. There's the added bonus that an open string sounds more like a fretted string.

When you do a setup, are you raising or lowering the nut slots? I'll venture a guess that you are lowering the nut slots, which would have been unnecessary with a zero fret. Factory guitars always have the nut slots too high.

Level and dress the zero fret just like all the others. Your fretwork does need to be very good if you use a zero fret.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

I'll add to what Rodger says, that factory guitars are intended to be set up after purchase. That includes fine tuning (lowering) the nut slots. I like the zero fret for several reasons, most notably that the zero fret height is right where it should be from the get go. Nut set up then becomes (mostly) setting the string spacing and making it look nice. As long as your slots aren't binding when you tune your in good shape. I also like the fact that I don't have to use bone. The last 4 instruments I did were polished hardwood, either matched to the FB/bridge or black. They are just made from scrap and can easily be remade or replaced.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Thanks for the info guys, I will keep that in mind, I guess since I have never worked on one I just didn't have the knowledge about it.

As far as my setups go, yes I always check the string action at the nut and do what is necessary to get the action right. Usually it is lowering the slots but on occasion I have had to fill and re-cut the slots because someone tried to "fix" it on their own. I will usually suggest bone replacements if I find plastic (same with the saddle)

I have found that even the big name guitar makers usually have pretty high action and they are not set up properly at the store or shop that sells them. I have had a lot of comments from clients that say their guitars have never played better.

As a pointless note, I use a zero fret and use an extended fret board which is notched to act as a string-guide. I have used this on my last four ukuleles with only one problem. My latest ukulele has a buzz on the first fret on the first string.
I have tried hammering the first fret, lifting and gluing the zero-fret so I have ordered high fret-wire to replace the zero- fret. The ten thou extra should work.

Bob

+1 for nuts

You might need higher action at the nut for people who like to drop D or slack key tune back and forth with standard tuning. That's why I use a slightly taller fret for the zero fret. But it's only very slight. Some players like to go Pete Townsend on the open E and A strings too.

Bryan, do you have a picture of one of your zero fret guitars?

I don't have one handy but here is a link to the last thing I finished. It is not a guitar but same idea. There are some pics on the page in the link that show the nut, but they are not really all that clear. Zoom in and you should be able to get a feel for it. There is also a poor quality video of a guitar with a zero fret but you probably can't see that too well either. I'll try to take a better pic in the next few days, but I may forget.

viewtopic.php?f=10133&t=37268&start=100

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Here's one:


The nut and truss rod cover match the body wood.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Thanks Bryan and Rodger! Newbie question....so the "zero fret" is at the (typical) nut position and the strings are laying on it (so it is in effect, the nut), and the nut is just a spacer and provides the break angle? Is that correct? Thanks again.

You got it.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Yes, the zero fret is at the typical nut position, and is in effect the nut.
No, the break angle is over the zero fret and the nut is the string spacer. I usually slot the nut deeply enough so that the string isn't tight against the bottom of the slot.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Beth, I thought of you in the shop tonight and snapped this pic for you. This is an uke not a guitar so don't let the little fret wire throw you off. You can get a better idea of the proximity of the "nut" to the zero fret. I'm still refining this neck, the nut will certainly end up lower. I like to install it before I carve the neck to keep everything flush. It is hard to tell from the pic but I put the nut on the fretboard side of the neck angle and the veneers create a nut slot. I suppose you could put it on the other surface and do the same but the corner that's hits the FB edge wouldn't be 90 degrees.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I like a zero fret, easy to set up, even tone on open chords, tiny bit more space for my hand.

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B7 is the only chord that gets me in that position, I play a lot in open D and seem to pull my hand back sometimes. It is subtle and really does not matter that much. The other little thing is the space from a volute to the first fret. I think on this one I have to give a pure players response, it's all in my head and I like it that way.

Thanks for the reminder, I was trying to think what song I play with b7's, and have been trying to remember what JJ Cale songs I know, Drifter's Wife.

RIP JJ

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A bit backwards Filippo, if you listen to JJ Cale while building, you will then have the urge to build with a zero fret, and learn some of his songs to play. Following me is like following the old woman who swallowed a fly, I don't know why . . . . . .

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Thanks, Bryan! The math of fretboards makes me nervous because it has to be so precise, but now that I have Andy B for FBs, maybe I'll start doing the zero fret thing on the next build...which probably won't be until 2014 given how slowly the J 45 is going!

Beth:
I use the fret board calculator on the Stumac site. I convert inches to millimeters and round to the nearest five. Using a jeweller's lupe , I can reliably place a fret-slot within half a millimeter (20 thou). Anybody who demands better precision than that is kidding himself or maybe I have a tin ear.

Bob