Official Luthiers Forum!

How many of you would actually like to make a living as a full time luthier?

It interests me - the standard of amateur making is so high these days, many of you seem so very dedicated. Yet with so many makers the market seems pretty much awash and breaking into the market is no simple matter. What are your thoughts?

Also - making seems much more popular on the forum than repairing, yet repairers can make a decent living if skilled and willing to put in the effort, and there is a shortage (in the UK at least) of good repairers. What' the situation elsewhere?

Would you rather make as a hobby than repair for a living...?

Is it nice just to treat lutherie as a fascinating pastime, which you might feel less happy about if your livelihood depended on it.

Let me know your thoughts folks.


nigel

http://nkforsterguitars.blogspot.com/

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Great hobby for me, but I think having to depend on it would take the fun and excitement out of the equation. I don't want to build under Strict deadlines with someone staring over my shoulder every step of the way. Not to say I don't have self set deadlines and not to say I dont like input from others. I just think if I was doing it for a living the pressure would take the joy away. Plus I'm not that good anyhow

I agree with you Zeke, this is just a pleasurable hobby for me.
Building to someone else's standards and deadlines would kill the joy for sure...
Besides, it sure beats watching bad TV...

hobby.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

I would like to go pro at some point in the not too distant future. I couldn't sustain my current lifestyle as a luthier, but I should have the house paid off and enough money saved up to transition into a lesser paying career (luthierie) in the next 5-10 years. I agree, there are some fantastic hobby builders out there and it seems the market is awash with great builders. Perhaps the market isn't too saturated, at least where I live...I've only built a handful of instruments and I already have three commissions lined up and I have done some repair work. I'll admit, they are all friends of mine, and my prices are low, but I haven't done any advertising or pushing at all. They all came to me. I do take building very seriously...if not at my day job I'm either in the shop or thinking about being in the shop.

It seems there is a shortage of good repair people around here too. My friend who owns a music store says repairs is the biggest money-maker for his store. I would like to get into more repair work, after I get a few more builds under my belt.

no interest at all until after retirement from my current profession

When I'm feeling cynical, I feel like every other twenty-something girl I know on Facebook is advertising their cupcake business, and everyone who's finished a guitar is a sponsor on the Acoustic Guitar Forum.

I really enjoy building guitars, but I am not interested in doing it for a living. I'm building a guitar for a client right now, and I've realized that while it's not unenjoyable per se, I really prefer the freedom to experiment, to go at my own pace, etc.

I'd like to continue building for friends and family in the future, but really, this is an escape for me. I can go down to the "shop" (by that, I mean garage), emerse myself in the soul-nourishing power of the process, and come back upstairs feeling refreshed.

... or photography. Now that is a business that is completely saturated with "professionals". I am one of those photography weekend warriors and it even makes me sick. I don't think the lutherie market is anywhere near that.

I certainly don't claim to know much about the handmade guitar market, but I could see how more builders could actually help existing builders in a way. I think most guitar players, be they casual or pretty serious, probably don't really consider custom or boutique built instruments. Their dream guitar is that Taylor 915 or Martin D45. This is not because they have made the choice for those guitars over hand built, but because they haven't even considered buying a hand built instrument. If more players out there owned hand built instruments, even "low end" ones, then they might become more popular. That rising tide could lift all ships.

I have been doing this since the 90's and I took it full time over 4 yrs ago. Yes there are days that it can get over powering but all in all I wouldn't change a thing. I hope they find me in my shop face down in the sawdust . I love what I do . Not many can say that about their jobs.
It is an individual choice. I do this with my wife and we both have mastered each part.
Hope we can all find what we like to do it for a living.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

A little history...

I started repairing in 1991. Started building instruments in '93, completed the first one in '96(no internet, no books, no catalogs..; had to figure it all out on my own...). Went "pro" in '99 when I lost my job of nearly 14 years.... Had a 2 year backlog at that point, so figured I didn't have much to lose.

Still at it! Still love it! But I still haven't found a good hobby to replace it, and still feel that I need to find another good hobby...... As much as I love what I do, there are time when I truly need something else to do after supper, but watching TV isn't -it-. So I find myself wandering back into the shop, where I soon realize I'm back at work... Until you've been there, you won't truly understand the dilemma....

One the kids are gone and we 'downsize' I plan on making a go of it. Maybe 5-8 years if things go well.

No interest in repairs at all, just building.

I would LOVE to make a living at this. I find myself spending more and more time during my day job thinking about the business model for my guitar making enterprise, rather then the work I am supposed to be focused on. I believe it will happen one day, but I am patient. With young children as part of my equation I need to plan carefully.

Shane

I would love to as well, but it's only a dream at the moment (only 1.5 guitars built). What I'd really like to do is combine it with a custom furniture making business. Maybe it will happen in 10 years or so - who knows?
As for a separate hobby, how about playing the guitars you build?

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"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

I started a custom furniture making business about 15 years ago. Loved it and after about a year I had more projects than I could keep up with. It became quickly apparent to me that the things I really loved about it, the custom design and the hand building, were the two things that were keeping me from being competitive. If I were going to keep doing it and make any money I needed to automate my design process (to some extent), standardize my basic construction methods with appropriate jigs/fixtures, and focus on one or two types of furniture. In other words, it was turning into a job so I finished my outstanding orders and quit. Went back to engineering.

As I go down the guitar building road I realize I have been working on my design process, setting up jigs/fixtures/shop stations for standard operations and trying to narrow my focus to two or three body types. My shop is no longer suitable for furniture construction but is solely dedicated to guitar building.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

This sure sounds familiar!

That sums it up Robbie

See if you and Grumpy agree

It isn't so much about it being a job but a passion. Yes After supper I like to take a break but often I find myself doing more interesting stuff like working on a basket case that interests me . Often is isn't customer stuff but things I find that will make me think . I do like golf but don't have time for that .
I also enjoy resawing , so when I am done "job" stuff I like to find things that I can sit down and enjoy a beer and have a challenge . Sometimes just cleaning the shop of rearrange a shelf brings a reward. Hoe many of you found something you forgot you had?
I once found 3 sets of BRW. That was a 2 beer nite.

In the end this is something we do because we are passionate about it. We need to make a living for sure but we do like what we do. I once had a student that said not to make my art my vocation , but I remember what George Burns once said , if you love what you do it isn't work.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Not sure if it counts as traditionally making a living as a luthier... But my manufacturing process is getting closer to going live every day. I expect my company will finally achieve profitability during this year, initially from our active pickup systems. Prototypes and limited production of the initial product line will allow the website to finally go live. As much as I enjoy purely crafting by hand, I know much more about high volume production than most people. Rather than putting out fires and telling the big guys how to do things properly, creating my own process is a real relief. It also has the advantage of seeking out investors to speed along expansion. My dream is to expand out to a few hundred full time employees, doing everything in the US, and always remaining privately held/family owned and operated.

It's a fun challenge. The 12+ hour days fly by. It's definitely not for everyone. Running your own business is much more work than a typical job... But if you love what it entails you will never look back.

Tried knitting or scrapbooking? ("Not that there's anything wrong with it...")

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

My dream is actually to open a small shop locally where I can sell a variety of the standards like Martins and Taylors, as well as hand-crafted instruments from regional builders like myself. I would limit it to acoustic instruments, guitars, ukuleles, mandolins etc., and do repair work. There a terrific place not far that really does a great job with electric guitars, (which is their forte') so I have no desire to compete with them. There is some really great old mill building space nearby which has very attractive rates for space, and the spaces are very nice with new heating & AC units and electrical. It's not a great retail location, but as a destination because of all the arts that are happening there and an indoor farmer's market during the colder months, it's a great destination location. There's a violin/fiddle maker there who does a nice business in repair, sales, and school rentals, and he thinks I could easily tap into the guitar market locally in the same capacity.

Now....could I make a living doing this? I doubt it. I suspect that I would struggle to survive during the first couple of years. There's GC not far away, and most people these days just go there for what they need/want. In this economy, it's probably fiscal suicide, and I'm not a huge risk-taker.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I will join the wannabe category. Going through the posts, there are many angles to this field and each of us looks for the one where we can be comfortable with the work and competitive in our market. Two summers ago I took the Charles Fox class and then went to the Healdsburg show. Great perspective gained from both of those experiences.
At this point from a job perspective, some of us will consider what else they can do. I am a custom woodworker by trade, but there are no shops hiring, and for how much? Guitar building and repair, teaching, playing whatever, all add up to small individual incomes from varied sources.
My dream is a basic teaching shop where parents and children can work together on a variety of instruments, not with the goal of learning lutherie, but with the goal of sharing a great experience and having heirloom instruments to show for it. With that I would like to do after school projects for students and continue to work on small instrument kits and projects as gateways to more music and creativity. Slowly I have been assembling the tools and skills to do this, learned woodworking, learned lutherie, teach part time shop class, have assemble many tools. Now I need to work out the curriculum details, find and afford the shop space, and top of the list, market the project, work on the mailing list, generate buzz.
Remember Virgil? I follow his Facebook posts, he works as hard at marketing as he does on his guitars, personally I don't aspire to build like him, but I give him credit for doing the marketing very well, lot to learn from his effort in getting his name out there.

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http://shastaguitar.com/
http://www.kalimbakit.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/robert.renick.7

What a surprisingly enjoyable thread(s) to read. Everyone’s history is different, but there is obviously an overriding passion for guitar building in every one who has responded. I retired a year ago, at age 65. While my income has declined, earning a living or saving for retirement is no longer a concern even in these economically trying times for many. I have lots of interest, and no music background, but after really thinking about what I would do in retirement that I thought would be fulfilling, I found that the idea of guitar building really appealed to me. I do not need to make a living at it, so no pressure. I decided to build what I like (no pressure there either) and if I might sell an instrument or two that would be okay; otherwise, I have lots of family and friends on my guitar gift list. My health is good, and I have new challenges and am learning something every day. I wish only success to those who choose this as a profession and hope you all prosper.

Nick, love your work by the way!

As someone who only started building as a hobby a few ago purely because as a player I was interested in how these things were put together... Plus an escape from the daily grind of a stressful day job, it's easy to think it would be great to be able to spend every day in the workshop.... A dream life! But as someone who at 43 has the usual mortgage , young family etc, it would really only be swapping one set of stresses for another, very much the financial ones- as building a strong enough reputation of quality and craft takes years... I suspect that the pleasure of the hobby would be too quickly eroded once deadlines, sales, marketing, finance became involved.

That said, were I 17/18 again, And with the benefit of hindsight, I would have maybe looked to have apprenticed with a pro, if possible - them maybe 20 odd years later, the skill and experience would have it would be possible now to make a decent living from it?

Do have a plan to maybe supplement the pension one day;-)

Question for you though.... Do you as a pro, feel that the increasing number of very good amateur or semi pro builders impacts your business negatively? Or does the increased awareness of the benefits of hand crafted instruments at realistic price points see more players take the hand crafted route?

For most amateur players, a £2000-£4000 investment is a serious decision and many still follow the 'resale' value rationale for deciding on a named brand - especially as the few top makers whose instruments do maintain their value are often charging 2 or 3 times that amount....

Final point is that anyone starting out would be restricted on what they can charge by what their market will pay.... And without a 'name' and decent reputation, that could be as low as £1000-£1500.

At that price would be impossible to make a living surely... Especially, as seems most pros I have spoken to actually don't make a real profit for their business .... Yes they earn enough, just, they are not selling at a standard retail mark up.... Eg. If you are selling at say £3000, if materials are £400-£1000, you add in a margin for tools and equipment, shop electricity, heating etc, insurance, and over business overheads, be generous and say labour is £20 an hour at 100 hours, then that £3000 instrument is actually the cost price, so should be selling at least at maybe £4000 to show a 30% margin... How many pros can actually sell at a price point that produces a genuine margin?

See... The business aspects are already depressing

Nigel, I don't suppose you'd be looking for an apprentice by any chance, would you?

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"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

Like others here, I already run one business. It is challenging and sometimes frustrating, but ultimately quite rewarding and I do realize that many, many people find themselves in a less satisfying situation, so I feel quite fortunate in that regard. As for guitar building, I came at it from a player's perspective, seeking to learn more about the inner-workings of these amazing instruments. Now I find myself working on them more than I play them and I sometimes daydream about starting a new business related to this hobby. I don't yet know what that might be and consider it unlikely, but it's not impossible.

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George :-)