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I like that! Sort of Shakespearean.

I don't normally measure the thickness of shavings, but after reading this thread, I thought, well, I've just been doing some fine finishing, wonder how thick the shavings are? Around 0.001" or just below. I can't measure any better than that without stacking a pile up and dividing by the number in the heap. Anyway, that was not really trying and with a blade that had already done a fair amount of work. 0.0007" should be eminently possible; trouble is measuring it.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

You really make me want to move to Japan... I wish Taiwan even have half the respect Japan has towards craftsman. However I heard (not sure) that one doesn't simply do craftsmanship as a hobby in Japan, there's a lot of secret in the way things are done there, and information aren't shared at all. I do not know what is their attitude towards someone who became a craftsmanship without having served as an apprentice.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Weird , isn't it, how some abbreviations come to be regarded as politically incorrect, while others sail on untroubled.

For example, why is it OK to refer to a native of Afghanistan as an "Afghan", or a native of Kurdistan as a "Kurd" , whereas referring to a native of Pakistan as a "Pak" is just about the most politically incorrect thing imaginable ?

The question is rhetorical btw, I don't mean to hijack the thread.

I was about to thickness some top, so I reached for my #5 plane, but I found a snake on it.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

First off Todd, please don't take my comment as agressive as it may have appeared. Imagine me saying it while both of us are sitting on a bar stool with some beer in our hands, and that will give you a better idea of the state of mind I was in when I wrote it.

What I'm trying to say is that what you and Trevor are able to do with a plane is not what we should all expect to be able to do, but rather that you guys should pack-up and go to Japan to compete in one of these things. As you point it out yourself, most of us "have no way of learning other than through very time consuming trial and error or spending time with the few individuals or organizations which teach the skill set". So we all deal with our .002" shavings (on a good day, as Fillippo more realistically points out), and I don't think we should feel bad about it.

In other words Todd, I think what you should have said is 'Yeah! I'm that good!", not "Mhee. Been there, done that..."

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I think if any of us went to the competition and used a plane already set up we would get the same results. When I take the time to set up a tool really well I get excellant results. When I'm lazy and just heft a tool aroung knowing it's blunt I get indifferent results, which is OK sometimes. If I was ever faced with a beautiful piece of BRW I know which path I would take.

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

I don't think there's any great secrets to getting really thin shavings (not that there is realistically much operational need to). There's heaps of misinformation out there, though. For me, it boils down to flat sole, narrow mouth, sharp blade. The best way to get a flat sole is to buy one of the "modern" planes; LN or LV. Both have worked for me. My Stanley/Bailey/Cliftons have all been flattened more than a few times, but keep on creeping due to never having been properly stress relieved (and the average age would be getting close to 50 years). The LNs and LVs were flat when new and have stayed flat. How flat is flat? probably better than 0.001" over the length of the sole.

The narrow mouth is easy - get an adjustable one (LV) but the LNs are easy enough to set up. The mouth only needs to be a bit wider than the shavings you want to pass.

Now the sharpening. I use pretty well exclusively two DMT diamond whetstones in the 10" size (which seems to be discontinued) the blue (325 mesh) and the green (1200 mesh). Raise a burr on the blue one and get rid of it on the green one. I use a honing guide and if there is a secret at all it is tapering off the pressure when finishing up on the green stone, finishing on strokes with almost zero pressure. One light stroke on the back for every two or three on the bevel. That's it. No stropping or buffing or anything. When you get it right you should have an edge that will easily split a hair. If it takes more than a minute to get an edge to that level, you're doing something wrong. It took me a long time to figure out what was best for me, but that's pretty much all there is to it. But anyway, if you can get a 0.002" shaving consistently there's really not much need to go thinner. Difficulties jointing plates are most frequently related to non-flat plane soles. Most people can do the sharpening adequately, but tend not to realise how much easier it gets with a flat soled plane. If your joint edges start out reasonably straight, a flat plane and a good shooting board should get you to a perfect fit in around a dozen strokes. If you think your technique is reasonable and it's taking a lot longer than that, check the sole of your plane.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

You should try using a mug or a pint glass Alain. You won't spill as much beer!

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Interesting, I have a degree in Geology and Diatoms were always my favorite. If it weren't for those little buggers the world would be a vastly different place.

As for the contest it is quite amazing. Those planes are interesting too. I guess the Japanese tend to pull cuts more then push like we do with saws and planes?

Also unless I am mistaken it looks to me like those planes are made of wood. So I would think getting the sole nice and flat would require some skills.

Many of the skills once needed for handplaning are no longer necessary by a majority of wood workers. Uniformly thicknessing boards and squaring edges has for the most part been taken over by machines. So we are left with the "how fine a shaving" school of handplaning. I don't really care how thin a shaving I make, I'm more interested in the work piece that's left.
The competition should probably be viewed in the same light as any sporting event - enjoyable to watch, but a bit of a trifle.

The planes are wooden. They don't flatten the whole of the sole, they just remove material in the right areas. Having a hollow just in front of the cutting edge of the blade is about as problematic as having a dull blade.

Thanks Tony. I'll give it a try and get back to you on it...

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

But that wouldn't be Todd Stock.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Those are definitely some nice shavings in curly maple but when I mentioned being impressed by their full width shavings I was referring to the wider planes-the beam being shaved in the video I linked looks to be around a foot wide and I actually came across a couple of other videos where guys are planing even wider beams.
Not saying you couldn't do it, just that I doubt anyone on this forum has the tool to do it.

Hi Filippo,
I think you missed my point, though perhaps it wasn't well stated. Like eating a large number of hot dogs in a short amount of time, making ultra fine shavings with a hand plane neglects the work in favor of the artifact.


"Well, sort of. We could continue that argument and say that factories make guitars so there is no reason to know how to make one. And certainly CNC obliviates the need to know how to, say, carve a neck. Yes I know you didn't take the conversation that far - those are my words - but it is to make a point."
How fine a shaving can you take off of a straw man?

I've built a number of bamboo fly rods and hand planing is the essence of the craft. One needs to be able to plane six identical 60 degree splines from 3-4 feet long. It must be in a single long stroke and even though you use a steel planing form its easy to veer off. After experimenting I've found 1/2 a thousandth is fine to get invisible joints. Anything more and there is a visible seam. Typically I have to sharpen the blade every 2-3 strokes to get a single shaving the full length and am not sure I could get thinner on bamboo. After visiting Japan for over 6 weeks numerous times, studying traditional architecture, knife making and bonsai I feel that its the spirit of the competition thats more important than the results. Follow the path grasshopper!
Tim

I've built a number of bamboo fly rods and hand planing is the essence of the craft. One needs to be able to plane six identical 60 degree splines from 3-4 feet long. It must be in a single long stroke and even though you use a steel planing form its easy to veer off. After experimenting I've found 1/2 a thousandth is fine to get invisible joints. Anything more and there is a visible seam. Typically I have to sharpen the blade every 2-3 strokes to get a single shaving the full length and am not sure I could get thinner on bamboo. After visiting Japan for over 6 weeks numerous times, studying traditional architecture, knife making and bonsai I feel that its the spirit of the competition thats more important than the results. Follow the path grasshopper!
Tim

holy smokes! 9µ = 0.00035433in

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Pat

I happened to notice Brian Newell's name pop up at the end of that video. I know he studied and lived in Japan for a while and it sure didn't hurt his woodworking chops.

http://briannewellfurniture.com/

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May be so... may be not so...

http://www.solomonrossfurniture.com/