Official Luthiers Forum!

Very cool!

Perhaps we shouldn't be so hard on the big guys.




But, then again... ...at least he capped the X.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

No, that's exactly what I'm talking about. A "certified Tech" that is certified by Guitar Center after 3 days of training, getting paid 8 bucks an hour. Their main function is to be a sales tool, so that when somebody looks at a guitar and asks "Has it been set up by a certified tech?" the employees can say "Sure it has!" And when the prospective customer goes and asks if the guitar needs anything, they can reassure the customer that no, everythings perfect! It's been set up!

Needless to say, they're not letting them spend the necessary time to level frets (even if they COULD, which most can't) or even give the guitar a really good once over, and I'm sure that they still don't send the lemons back to the factory, but the techs aren't allowed to tell the customers that they should get a different guitar without PO-ing the store manager, and since they've filled out a "checklist" card and initialed it, they have to back it up with talk or they look bad.

Thing is, they look REALLY bad when someone brings me a guitar with the checklist showing "frets checked", and they're still not level.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

That guys working way outside of the box - wow what an innovation - this guys light years ahead of the pack..!!
Cheers
Charliewood

It's been several years since I saw that disaster and as I think about it I think I decided that he used the StewMac 12 fret 000 plans and put a 14 fret neck on it. I do remember the owner paid $1500 for it. It had other issues. The builder later skipped town for parts unknown. Probably working at Gibson.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Well...I still like Gibsons, but I almost bought a L-00 Custom once...and happened to put a mirror in. The string ends were sucked into the top missing the bridge plate altogether.

M.

I am myself a GC tech and Roberto Venn Graduate.... Maybe i shouldnt go into this but I got pretty pissed off reading some of your
comments about the Gc Techs.... for starters I dont have to bow to any corporate big guy telling me I cant tell a customer what I
think of any guitar. Obviously I dont bad mouth companys just to vent my opinion but neither would anybody else here that owned a music shop and sold that brand..... Also for somebody who wants to start in Luthiery as a carrer after spending $10000 on schooling for it would be stupid to turn down an hourly pay + commison (hourly pay is not $8 for graduates). Especially sense the only reason to turn it down would be for fear that some hot shot luthier would look down on him and asume he dosent know what hes doing because hes employed by a certain company.....i could go on for days but wont..... Im proud to make a living and support myself doing what I love and get upset when I see people who really have no idea how it works tearing it down.


Also I subscribe to the classifieds here just to help out this site because I come to this forum alot for help on my own building projects and really love the helpfull people on it. I thank you all for that help but if I am just a "guitar tech" and not a "Luthier" maybe I dont belong here.

Don't blame you for getting PO'd. I've dealt with folks at GC in several parts of the country and, like most stores, I've run into folks that run the gamut from totally clueless to happy to give you bad advice, to very knowledgeable. You know the old saying - it only takes one aw crap to wipe out ten attaboys I, for one, am glad to have you here and hope you'll stick around.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Todd's great pictures inspired me to get a web cam with LED lights so I can document what my mirror shows me. It is a cheap offshore no name ( $8.00 ) with ability to manually focus and control the LED lights. My web cam program is not the greatest so now I am looking to improve on it. Made a cool video clip tour of the inside of a guitar I was working on.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

I like GC...and respect the people that work there. I think you belong here....maybe more than some, that consider this their stomping ground.

Enjoy your craft, and skip the politics.

Michael

Talk about testing an X-brace. I was just about to glue one on. I thought i'd just flex it a little bit. I barely even bent it at all, and it split. SCARY. The bracewood is sitka from LMI. Tight quartered. And it split across the grain running downward. Good reason to cap the X right there.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

What if a guitar is unsuitable for sale? Wouldn't the sales guys be upset at you for screwing their sale? Would the corporate bigwigs be happy? Try it and see.

Fact of the matter is I'm extremely knowledgeable about how the whole thing works.

No need to be pissed either, you gotta start somewhere, might as well be GC. If I had graduated from a luthier school and needed a place to work, I'd probably look at GC too. Enjoy your title of Luthier and don't leave on MY rude account.

But just for your knowledge, the way it USED to work, was the luthiers were independant contractors with a vendor number, and they "vended" their service to GC. GC provided the space, the luthier provided their own tools and decided what services they could and could not offer. The employees checked the guitars in and out. The luthier charged the store whatever they felt their services were worth, and the store marked the price up 20%. Of course it's prudent to make the final charge something the customer will pay, but it also needed to be worth my time. For example, I would charge the store $35 for a setup, the store would charge the customer $42. I would charge the store $80 for s fretdress/setup, the store would charge $96. So, the luthiers actually cost the store nothing but a small counter space, and the store made money on whatever the luthier did. A good tech in a busy store such as myself could make a minimum $250 and up daily, I've made as much as $2000 in one week, doing setups, refrets, nuts and saddles, structural repairs, etc.
I made my own schedule, didn't have to sell anything, and provided a valuable in demand service, and brought in business to the store that would otherwise have never walked in. (Not everyone is enamored with big box stores).

After Bain Capital bailed out GC they looked at the arrangement and decided that the arrangement was too favorable to the luthiers and they decided to make some changes, and here we are. And sadly, not all the techs took their job seriously enough to work with the stores and the sales staff properly, and instead of being an asset they were actually a liability. So there were actually some very good reasons to rearrange things for the store.

Under the new terms and programs, it would have been impossible for me to make the same amount of money as I was, and my workload was set to almost double as well. I could also forsee how in the long run, GC involvement could actually hurt my reputation rather than help it, once my independant contractor status expired and I was forced to fill out those checklist cards, whether or not I actually dressed the frets or not. (A district manager actually told to just check the box, no one would know!).

I hope you do well in your vocation.

And by the way, I wouldn't say it's stupid to turn down an hourly rate plus commision job to start your own business, you might actually make more money and make a better name for yourself in your town in the long run.

It might actually be smart to do so.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Oh geez, double post! Sorry!

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Great argument for splitting you own bracewood.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

John,
Count me among those who hope you'll stick around. I often read things here that rub me the wrong way, but find the best policy is to try and ignore those threads and move along to others which contain more useful information. That's easier said than done, of course, especially in a situation like this one, where you feel personally offended. You've defended your position gracefully and I admire your restraint. I also respect the efforts you've taken to advance your craft and I hope that you will continue to share your experience and expertise here on the OLF.

Back on topic: I'll be making a few sets of braces here pretty soon. This thread is convincing me to take extra care as I do so. Pretty eye opening stuff.

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George :-)

The problem was the repair guys who didn't honor their deal. The techs weren't supposed to be doing cash deals under the table, and were supposed to be an asset, not a drain. I actually got along really well with my store manager and the store was profiting $12-1800 bucks in pure profit off of what I was doing, plus the business I was drawing in myself (it goes both ways). I'd hardly call that charity. Also a lot of the guys didn't get along with the store managers, which didn't help. I didn't mind the neck tweaks and guitar advice. I'm not blaming GC for looking at that situation and getting frustrated. I think they could have found a better way to work with existing guys who WERE an asset, rather than making a blanket policy for the whole corporation that all the stores had to follow, even the ones who liked their situation.

I did like the sweetheart deal and was grateful for the space, and had no problem running everything through the store for their commision.

What I DIDN'T like was the fact that I KNEW that guitars had problems and had to decide whether to lie or tell the truth whenever someone escaped the salesman for a minute to run over and get my honest opinion of a guitar setup and what it was capable of. If I told them it was fine, i knew they were just going to go over somewhere else and get an honest answer and I would likely never see them again. Same thing with the little check cards. If I checked off the frets and didn't fix them, someone else would, and I'd never see them again as I would appear incompetent. There was no way I was going to do 60 free fret dresses for the store to keep my spot as an independent contractor.

As it is now, I'm doing better in my own spot, which I actually didn't think was possible until I was forced into it. Have more time to build, and have been selling used and custom handmade guitars to my walk in traffic, which I wasn't allowed to do at GC.

The transition was a little upsetting, but that's life in the corporate world, and I think things worked out for the better.

I got what I wanted, a repair shop of my own run my way, and GC got what they wanted, store employees who have the obligation to push the chain's agenda whatever it may be, and are providing nice startup spots for those who are just graduating from luthier schools and need to practice their chops before going on their own.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

At least new luthiers can go to GC and work their way up, instead of tens of thousands of dollars needed to set up their own business.

I get more Gibsons than any other brands in for repair at my shop, I guess that's saying something.

In Taiwan there are no such thing as Guitar Center, what they have is a semi professional music stores run by various individuals or groups of individuals with absolutely no emphasis on service. They want to sell stuff but when service is needed (such as one customer with a Martin DM that had a loose neck bolt) they tell the customer to send the guitar back to the factory (in the US) at their own expense. I actually felt Guitar Center, despite whatever they may be is a good thing because if they came and opened stores in Taiwan, all of the music shops in Taiwan would be driven out of business.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Thanks for the kind words people, I feel a new drive to post some topics on the repairs im doing to hopefully help people out or get some good criticism. Ill get on that.

To add to the actual topic, most Gibsons I get in are bridge reglues and bellied tops (usually one in the same) but also see where braces were probably a part of the problen there to, and never addressed that much.... il be taking closer looks on 70's hummingbird i got in right now for a new bridge which was sanded to thin..... which needs a neck reset and the customer only want the new bridge! no matter what i say!

Might also have to do with the fact that the customer just don't want to pay for a neck reset... I charge over $500 US for a job like this. For some they might think they'll just buy a Takimine for that price. Problem is those guitars can't even be reset because they use epoxy...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I look inside every guitar that comes through my shop. That Gibson is awful but does not surprise me in the least bit. A colleague of mine who worked at the Gibson factory in Bozeman for two years as a quality specialist was constantly under pressure to move crap that did not pass his inspections. He quit.

Seriously with a block plane I could have that leveled and glue a cap on that x-brace, heck just use CA, and be done with it in 5 minutes.

johnwalkerwaldsmith
Thank goodness your sticking around!! I was loathe to see yet another great guitar person walk away from OLF over yet another misunderstanding.... we have lost way too many ppl due to lack of tact, or sensitivity(or oversensitivity) to comments, or just plain rudeness.... whatever the instance!
(and Im not applying any judgements to the previous posts to which you took offense)
My point is the result is the same - one less poster - one less entertaining comment - one less helpful remark - one less opportunity for growth...
Thanks to all for jumping in to diffuse the situation and thanks for those previous posters who clarified thier original position,
I find so many ppl are offended by offhand comments that are only part of how the poster feels about a particular situation... or perhaps not a completely balanced view of the situation... just offhand comments that are interpretted in the worst way..
My rule of thumb reading print is " to assume something was meant in the nicest possible sense, until proven otherwise"
It has saved me some grief!
Cheers
charliewood

johnwalkerwaldsmith

- I am looking forward to more posts - your response was well written and restrained. thanks to guitarwhisperer in explaining his position.

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

Does Gibson normally cap x-braces? And how much does the lack of a cap impact the likelihood of failure?

I always do, but my perspective is necessarily different than a production shop.

I want my instrument to be perfect. I cap the x-braces, install side braces, and do lots of things that take time but that incrementally increase the odds that the instrument will survive just a little longer.

A production shop can't afford to make everything perfect on every instrument. Most production shops have to weight the costs of additional precautions against the cost of the occasional repair.

If a company offers a lifetime warranty and consistently stands behind it, that's no excuse for a building process that is highly likely to result in failures. But if the incremental risk of failure is small, and the cost of repairing them is not high, then I can understand an approach that says "it's not worth the investment to install a x-brace cap on every instrument."

With that said, I don't know how much the lack of x-brace caps would impact the failure rate. I always put them on, because it's a fairly small percentage of the total time I invest in a guitar. I suspect Gibson knows, though.

I thought a factory often builds their instruments stronger than they should be (often at the cost of sound) to reduce warranty rates.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com